as i’ve expressed here before, one of the reasons i love the NBA playoffs so much is that its one of the few remaining places in america that makes no apologies for being a meritocracy. because of the best of seven game series structure, the best teams with the best players usually win, and that’s that. there are no cinderellas, no overmatched underdogs advancing to the next round, and no room for saccharin sentiment and overemotionalism.
also, because basketball is the only of the major world sports that requires each of its participants to run, jump, throw, catch, and move laterally while also possessing at least an above average amount of bodily-kinesthetic intelligence, to consistently excel in high-level basketball, you need to have teams equipped with world-class athletes. typically, these athletes tend to be giant men, and those who aren’t tend to make up for their shortcomings by being genetic freaks of nature. this is an inarguable fact
although basketball is played by millions of people around the world, the league where the best of the best compete is mostly populated by men with (somewhat) recent roots in sub-saharan africa. this is also an inarguable fact.
with these two pieces of information, someone could deduce that people descending from sub-saharan africa might have certain athletic advantages that allow them to be at the top of the athletic pyramid, traits formed over millions (or, if you’re a literal creationist, around 2,500…give or take a decade or two) of years of evolution, and this deduction wouldn’t be completely unreasonable. sure, how evolution, nature, and nurture interact to create valued athletic characteristics is a much more complicated and nuanced topic than just stating “africans are better athletes.“, but there’s enough physical evidence there to at least have the discussion.
this brings us to stephanie grace.
grace, a harvard law student, was the subject of an andrewsian-level internet firestorm last week when an email she wrote to a few classmates about the possibility that blacks may have genetic intellectual defects was forwarded all over the internet.
from abovethelaw (click to read the entire email):
I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent. I could also obviously be convinced that by controlling for the right variables, we would see that they are, in fact, as intelligent as white people under the same circumstances. The fact is, some things are genetic. African Americans tend to have darker skin. Irish people are more likely to have red hair. (Now on to the more controversial:) Women tend to perform less well in math due at least in part to prenatal levels of testosterone, which also account for variations in mathematics performance within genders. This suggests to me that some part of intelligence is genetic, just like identical twins raised apart tend to have very similar IQs and just like I think my babies will be geniuses and beautiful individuals whether I raise them or give them to an orphanage in Nigeria. I don’t think it is that controversial of an opinion to say I think it is at least possible that African Americans are less intelligent on a genetic level, and I didn’t mean to shy away from that opinion at dinner
now, i completely understand why this email has been such a lightning rod. first, this wasn’t written by some backwoods tea-bagger with a baby on her hip and an ounce of tobacco in her lip. no, she’s an ivy-educated (soon-to-be) lawyer who belongs to the same law review that president obama was once president of…the complete antithesis of the “type” of white person that comes to mind when thinking of racial prejudice. plus, the entire civil rights movement in america (and any other country where there has been an oppressed people) was based on the fact that all men are created equal, and arguing that there are inherent inadequacies present in some races is all the justification racists need to continue to be racist. also, as a black american who usually thinks he’s the smartest person in the room (or, at least the most able to articulate his impressively witty observations), my first response to grace’s email was “f*ck you, stupid caveb*tch“.
but, while her assertions may have been disturbing, i have to wonder: are we more disturbed by her audaciousness of opinion, her dangerous naivety, or the (slim) possibility that she’s right¹?
my guess? more than anything else, the overwhelming response (which seems to vacillate between “she’s a dangerous racist that needs to be drawn and quartered. ali bomaye!!!” and “really, i’m not that mad. this just shows how white people really feel“) shows that most of us (and by “us” i mean educated black people) are hypocrites. we’ll discuss, debate, and joke about how we have certain inherent athletic, aesthetic, physical, rhythmic, and sexual advantages, but once the subject of intelligence is brought up, anything suggesting that we’re sitting anywhere other than the top of the human pyramid is immediately discounted and dismissed as racist, ignorant, and destructive. the only thing more dangerous than faulty opinions is the refusal to discuss them.
anyway, people of vsb.com, what’s your take on the email and the response it’s generated? was it wrong, racist, or just not very politically correct?
also, do you think it’s possible that evolution has allowed for people in certain parts to be predisposed to be better at certain things?
¹right now, there’s no conclusive evidence about race and its relation to intelligence. sh*t, there isn’t even any conclusive evidence that race itself actually exists. its all theory. for all we know, we (people with recent african) might be genetically superior to everyone else. who knows? my point is that just because something hasn’t been proven yet doesn’t mean it can’t be true.
—the champ
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{ 288 comments… read them below or add one }
HA first again.. I’m on a roll beyatches!!
Roll Deez!
Been a long day. Will respond in the morning. I believe tomorrow will be an interesting day indeed. That’s what I love about VSB. Very informative. Had no idea that this email was out there like that, but then again not surprised the subject matter was brought up. Holla.
I read this from a fellow BLSA member and have discussed the issue, I believe the main issue is not only that it is not true but 1. She actually voiced an opinion like that to others 2. Given the history of Blacks in America, a rash statement of that nature needs not be said by someone who has a pending federal judicial clerkship and has taken at least a semester if not a year of constitutional law and criminal law (which clearly explains to her how race and America are so intertwined) therefore her comment is just extremely out of line based on the lack of research and basis for her comment. So I would say it has aspects of all 3 of your assertions.
“…She actually voiced an opinion like that to others”
now, this was a private email though, a follow up to a discuss she had over dinner. if every email i’ve ever sent to someone found a way to be published, i probably wouldn’t have a girlfriend, i definitely wouldn’t be employable, and i’d most likely have warrants.
True but it wasn’t too private because she sent it to people who barely knew her and it was over a list serve, All I’m saying is list serve= probably can expect to see it again. She should have known better. Now a private email to 1 or 2 close friends, I think, would be in a different category. In response to her job, would you feel comfortable with a person who may possibly becoming a judge one day feeling that Black people are just not as smart? I could definitely see a domino effect for the worse…
A law student should have known better than “voicing an opinion like that…” in WRITING… not to mention being a white girl writing that type of nonsense to anybody w/ an oz. of african heritage. In her position, there is no excuse for naivety.
Fully agreed. Something suggests to me that this type of response was almost “planned”….how can someone, who boast of an Ivy League education with credentials of a world leader (although I side-eye my own comment on that one) NOT expect such a response to occur? What’s even worse is that the way she presents her argument comes off as so “factual”, some backwoods broad will take it to be fact. ANY person who has ever studied theory knows for a FACT that intellect cannot be fully measured or attributed to any biological development. Intelligence; if anything, intelligence is broken down into categories associated with ability. Naivete? Sure, she definitely has some. But the case here is that she happens to be the prototypical educated white woman who “knows everything” because she read a few books and lived in a special, lil’ world where her racial background meant automatic “genius” category….
Ok, rant over.
OK, rant over.
But is it really out of line?
#1) She did some huge study on race in undergrad.
#2) She said that it could be true.
#3) Are you sure that her private idea will inhibit her from performing her job admirably?
I dont think doing a study on race in undergrad automatically makes someone have the neccessary credentials to discuss a linkage between race and genetics. In the entire email she rules out societal factors for African-Americans performing lower on standardized tests and other standards for measuring intelligence. Fact: There is no accurate way to measure intelligence because there are so many dimensions. As one who has clearly “researched” she would understand that IQ tests have been dismissed by the scientific community as having any real bearing on your level of intelligence. However, yes it could be true that those from the African descent could be genetically less intelligent than those from other nations, the only problem with this is that we are all one species and not even a subspecies. But i mean hell, it could be true.
I think her viewpoints say a lot about America and how others view our people. The true implications of being genetically less intelligent than other races implies inferiority, thus superiority of the white race over us. I personally feel uncomfortable with those that can become future judges and prosecutors that wield the power to determine sentencing feeling superior than an entire segment of our society. When there are already huge gaps in length of sentence times for African-Americans, these type of individuals surely wont help bring about TRUE justice.
cosign for the most part. & it could also be true that ppl of african descent are actually far more intelligent, but huge confounders such as social constructs & marginalization, etc. etc. & perhaps a lack of lust for world domination have prevented black folks from taking center stage. I don’t need to remind anybody that the many a black scholar & leader has risen from the darkest depths of back society…
Agreed. As much as I think genetic factors are unarguable, I do happen to think that over time social and environmental factors play a role in evolution. If anyone has read Carter G. Woodson’s masterpiece “Miseducation of the Negro” (and if you haven’t, please get off this board and do that NOW), you know that his very argument was that Black Americans possess the same intelligence as their White counterparts. His assertion was that the environmental factors such as poverty and “slave mentality” was what kept us down. His claim is that once we a a people buy into the fact that we aren’t as intelligent, aren’t as business savvy, etc, that White people no longer need to physically enslave us. We’ve already built the cage, restricted our reach and stifled our advancement overall if we begin to buy into that logic.
Over time, that thinking is passed down and it becomes a staple of our people. So, the real question isn’t so much if this woman is right or wrong. It’s more “do we believe it to be true? If so, why? And what do we do about it so we don’t begin putting yet another layer of “we can’t” into our mentality and push that onto future generations?”
I don’t think she has to be qualified or have the “necessary credentials” in order to have a conversation. I didn’t read the entire e-mail, so please correct me if I’m wrong and she presents herself as an expert on the relationship between race and intelligence. If she did not, I agree with the Champ upthread. THis was intended to be a private discussion. Admittedly, she was dumb to commit it to writing. And I’m not defending or advocating her views, but I do believe there is a difference b/w public and private speech. THere are many things I would not say if I thought my boss or my mother would overhear. The good news is that now we know something about where she stands, which is always preferable to being wholly in the dark.
“Are you sure that her private idea will inhibit her from performing her job admirably?”
based upon her writing style, and her insistence on proving a point that–from the context of her email–it seemed no one else was interested in discussing further, she seems close-minded and sheltered. her arguments are made and supported very poorly. (honestly? you can prove that african AMERICANS are genetically predisposed to be less intelligent based on some scenario with twins in nigeria? and what about the millions of black people on this planet who are not african american? what of them? did they escape the faulty genes or is it just supposed to be implied that all blacks are genetically predisposed to be less intelligent, and we should just know she’s using homegrown negros as an example, while leaving out the majority of the world’s black population? i really don’t even know why i’m even looking this deep into this twit’s words in the first place, but i give her the sideeye for lack of reasoning skills alone. i mean, this is a 3L about to be released out into the world as an attorney.)
further, as the clerk for a federal judge (and in all seriousness, i hope she loses that clerkship. i have no vitriol toward her based on her argument in any other regard–her opinion is her opinion. but someone stupid enough to transmit such garbage through email and reveal all their prejudices publicly does not belong in such a position and, while i wish her a nice life in every other regard, i would be happy to see this opportunity passed on to someone else) she will have a direct role in shaping the law. not that there aren’t already many people who silently share her views in positions of power already, but this airhead is dangerous. when you have had the opportunity to be exposed to all that education and can still lump a whole group of people into the “less intelligent” category–and have no fear about expressing it, whether it’s to a small group of strangers, or a big group of strangers, or a vegetable, animal or a mineral–you’re a special type of bigot. and the reason i think that it’s repulsive that she will be shaping the law is that when you write someone off as being less than you, and just being naturally equipped with a more inferior set of equipment than you, you can easily excuse injustices toward them and rationalize why they should be denied basic rights.
ex: i think animals are great. but i’ll fight til my dying day to keep elsie on my plate with some steak sauce because i don’t see animals as having the same type of intelligence as people. therefore it’s ok to me that we use them to feed ourselves. this girl is in a position to be writing briefs and deciding cases (what many judicial clerks basically do) with that same mindset toward a people. yeah, i completely believe that her views will keep her from doing her job admirably. and if she’s able to keep that coveted clerkship position in a United States federal court, i think it’s a shame.
This is where i disagree w/ you. Analysis of her writing style and the way she is trying to prove a point is moot b/c it was intended to be a private conversation. We all say some really off the wall sh*t in order to prove a point to our friends. At least I do.
Secondly, she hasnt lumped anyone into a group. At least not yet. Her email shows that she is willing to be persuaded. What else do you want from a judge? Being open to the idea is not an affirmation of that idea. I much rather havea judge and clerk who are opened to ideas rather than have an opinion.
“Being open to the idea is not an affirmation of that idea”
best point i’ve heard all day
we disagree.
My last comment is in moderation so it will come through eventually but one thing is that whatever happened to free speach and the constitution?
I will have to cosign with champ on your line regarding being open to the idea. I think it is important for the judge to be open to the ideas but I believe saying “I would just like some scientific data to disprove the genetic position, and it is often hard given difficult to quantify cultural aspects.” in conjunction with the rest of her paper show more of a slanted viewpoint than fully being open-minded. Also, while we do have free speech, that doesnt mean people cant be judged for their comments. Taking this a step further. If Stephanie Grace were to be a judge and say a racial discrimination case came to her bench and the court case focused on a lack of hiring/promoting African-Americans to key position with a company because they maybe felt as though they werent intelligent enough to maintain those positions, how will you have a truly fair trial?!?!
Peyso May 4, 2010 at 1:57 pm
My last comment is in moderation so it will come through eventually but one thing is that whatever happened to free speach and the constitution?
______________________________________
Y’know, bro, I have to partially agree with you here. You’re right that everyone has the freedom of speech- that’s exactly the right that S. Grace exercised when she clicked “send” on this ridiculous e-mail. She also has freedm of thought, which she eloquently displayed in her email message. See, I haven’t heard one person yet knock her for expressing her thoughts and ideas (maybe I haven’t read all the comment yet); the argument has been over how simple and ridiculous her arguments are that Blacks are genetically predisposed to be less intelligent than whites. A simple flip of a few pages will put so many dents into that entire theory she presented. Example? Sure….if her theory is correct, during Neanderthal existence, there were also quite a few other culturally “civilized” groups living in Southern Africa; since these African cultures were “civilized” according to today’s defintion, does this mean that all people with genetic ties to Southern Africa are inherently more intelligent?
Besides, as long as Sarah Palin is allowed to open her mouth for purposes other than eating and breathing, S. Grace’s simple opinion wll always be that: simple. I swear, opinions are like a**holes: everyone’s got one and it produces nothing but sh*t.
OK, seriously. Rant over.
Free speech applies to the government’s ability to restrict speech. It has nothing to do with private actors, which I’m quite sure she knows as a lawyer.
Furthermore, her free speech was not restricted. She said exactly what she wanted to say.
And then everybody else said what they wanted to say.
YOu don’t appear to be advocating for free speech, you appear to be advocating for a world where some people have the freedom to say whatever they want, and other people have the freedom to take it. That’s not a world I’m cool with. I’m cool with a world where you say what you want, and then you live with the consequences of your actions.
I could go on about how race is a social construct, and scientific study after scientific study have pretty much proven there are more than 7 races (black, white, latino/native america, middle eastern, indian, and east asian, and whoever the aborigines/people of oceania are) I think at last count, scientists have said there are 5,000 different “races” – this making the concept USELESS. – and if race does not exist, making arguments about race-based characteristics can not make any kind of sense.
We really shouldn’t pay homage to these people by giving these d’evil’s any shine (c) jay-z/pe interlude.
Rather than break down the inherent self hatred in what you just said, I’m going to just quote some white girl (I know you ain’t taking kindly to links, but she has the energy to rebuke the cr@p)
“The asking of the question, and taking the question seriously, suggests that the answer just might be yes, no matter how many times the evidence points in the opposite direction. That does real harm to members of our community; it has done real harm historically to huge numbers of people, and will continue to do real harm in the future. ”
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/04/29/stephanie-grace-racist-harvard-emailer/
Y’all still got time to pull this bs thread and do a “Is Tyler Perry good for black relationships”
“Rather than break down the inherent self hatred in what you just said, I’m going to just quote some white girl”
how is presenting a topic at a place primarily populated by (at least) somewhat intelligent black people exhibiting self-hatred?
also…
“I think at last count, scientists have said there are 5,000 different “races””
…doesnt the fact that scientists can’t even agree on how many different “races” exist suggest that any conclusions made about those races is basically just intelligent speculation at this point?
Hmm…it seems to me that she did not just make a comment on race and intelligence, but also race and violence. Here is what I thing is wrong with her statement and this argument in general.
1. As stated above, it is unclear how many races exist. In Africa alone there is an extreme amount of genetic variation. If genetics are involved here, why stratify people based on an archaic view of race (black vs. white)? The whole construct of races today was created by a German scientist, Johann Friedrich Blumenbach , who was trying prove that White people were more intelligent. Blumenbach’s race classification is still used today.Does she even account for the genetic variation in White people? The term White in America has no meaning because you can be from Estonia or England and be considered white if you gave up your ethnic identity. This is what many Europeans did when they migrated to the US, so you could be Anglo-Saxon, Nordic, or Gaulish and still be considered White.
2. I am an African immigrant and statistics show that Africans who immigrate to the United States do significantly better on achievement tests than African Americans (born and have ancestry in the US). If genetics is to explain intelligence, why do African immigrants do better than African Americans? Could it be related to the hundreds of years of disenfranchisement that has occurred in the US, where in African Americans were denied education and when they eventually received education, they received low quality education? The problem of low quality education for African Americans is still very relevant today. Living in the DC area has taught me the difference between a “black school” and a “white school.”
2. The human genome project has failed to find an genetic link between intelligence and race. This question of race and intelligence is not a new one and to suggest that there is no research to back up an argument either saying yes or no is ridiculous. She could have easily pulled out statistics comparing IQ scores of blacks vs white that supports her conclusion. However, she would have had to address the drawbacks of those statistics, which is significant enough to incite an intelligent debate. This law student could have easily provided a sound argument in this email because sufficient research does exist.
3. This law student also mentioned violence, which is a whole different topic altogether that is being ignored. She suggests that black people are not only less intelligent, but more violent as well. To me, this proves her ignorance. An good research knows to mention drawbacks of statistics and again there are MANY drawbacks. She uses crime statistics as evidence that black people are genetically predisposed to violence. However, there are many factors that contribute to crime statistics and she even mentions herself that we cannot control for all these factors.
4. A sentence that I find troubling is “just like I think my babies will be geniuses and beautiful individuals whether I raise them or give them to an orphanage in Nigeria.” I find this sentence cringe-worthy. Basically she says that her children will be smart and pretty even if they are raised by Africans. That is an ignorant statement there.
In conclusion, what is troubling about this email is not that the law student suggested that race and intelligence might be genetic, but how she presented the idea. Should have easily made an intelligent argument, but her phrasing suggests that she already made a conclusion; that black people are not as intelligent as white people as evidence by the quote from point 4. I think what troubles us the most is that she is supposed to be part of the educational elite and might have a high position as a judge in the future. However, haven’t the elite of our society often been known to be racist? If she is unaware of her privilege and accounts for her being in Harvard because she is genetically predisposed to be intelligent then that is even more troubling than this email.
This is a mess of a comment! lmao I can’t count I swear, I added a point than forgot to change the number. 1 2 3 4 5….smh
Anyway, ignore the typos because my brain is fried! I just took a long ass test.
You’re my new best friend.
Some of the things that are being said about African Americans may induce a few modern day Malcolm X’s, without Muhammad’s clan to assassinate him, if these people aren’t careful.
Farrakhan has already resurfaced. lol. (May 9th, TV One on One, 9PM EST).
COSIGN 1M% there really shouldn’t be any more comments after this one… u’ve said it all.
Wow. I didn’t even know that she attempted to link blacks to violence. That would be like me linking pedophilia to whites. Also she is overlooking the fact that in 1950 blacks only made up 35% of the prison population(MUCH smaller than the 2mill pop. 2day) while whites made up 65%. Your’e completely right when you say she definitely did not have any expertise on the issue and presented her argument in an academically irresponsible way.
“she suggests that black people are not only less intelligent, but more violent as well”
no she doesn’t. she makes a point that the stereotypical perception of african-americans being ultra violent wasn’t true 200 years ago. in fact, we were assumed to be generally docile and peaceful. she’s basically saying that outside forces have completely changed the perception/reality.
i can’t believe i’m defending her, but i just hate when people get their messages misunderstood
how is presenting a topic at a place primarily populated by (at least) somewhat intelligent black people exhibiting self-hatred?
Problem is, The Champ, you did not JUST present the topic… You evaluated it, did a
somewhat irrelevantbasketball analogy, and formulated the beginnings of an opinion… so that takes away from the “presenting” of the subject… You have given your point of view on the matter…. I wouldn’t go as far as calling it self-hatred but it is at the very least rather self-indulgent…““The asking of the question, and taking the question seriously, suggests that the answer just might be yes, no matter how many times the evidence points in the opposite direction. That does real harm to members of our community; it has done real harm historically to huge numbers of people, and will continue to do real harm in the future”
Actually this is false b/c we have never gotten a definitive “no”, so theoretically, the answer could be yes. Also, the answer to the question could be “no, and actually black ppl are more intelligent”. I think that not asking the question, assumes that black could NOT be more intelligent.
We are willing to accept differences in phenotype but not in genotypes?
“The asking of the question, and taking the question seriously, suggests that the answer just might be yes, no matter how many times the evidence points in the opposite direction. That does real harm to members of our community; it has done real harm historically to huge numbers of people, and will continue to do real harm in the future. ”
I fail to understand the harm in asking a question. Actually, I feel just the opposite – Not asking questions can cause greater harm to society. Questions provoke thought and dialogue that leads to people making educated or at least, more wise decisions based on circumstance and whatever thoughts are expressed. Not asking questions leans towards a close-minded-ness that can be extremely harmful in many ways, especially if one wishes to grow as a person.
To break it down to a third grade level, I recall my teacher saying, “the only stupid question is the one that’s not asked.” That stuck with me and made me a very inquisitive person and I know that has made me a better, wiser individual. In life, I feel we learn a lot from interaction and speaking about different things and different people. It’s kind of like exercise for the mind in a way.
“I fail to understand the harm in asking a question.”
I agree with this 100%. And frankly, the tone of this e-mail doesn’t even strike me as strongly or intentionally racist. This is an academic question. Is it good for us a race (in terms of progress, self-image, etc.) to have seemingly intelligent white people making statements like this? Probably not. Would she be someone I would be happy to have in a positon of power? Also, probably not. But I’m definitely not going to lose sleep over her raising a question that can’t or at least hasn’t been answered definitively.
“And frankly, the tone of this e-mail doesn’t even strike me as strongly or intentionally racist.”
Agreed. To me, it’s along the same lines of that coach who said he recruited black men for his football team because slavery led to black men being bred to be more physical and, thereby, more athletic. I cannot remember which coach said it (I’ll have to look that up later), but the point is that while it’s an unpleasant assumption, it’s just that…and assumption.
This question doesn’t need to be asked. It’s been answered thousands of times, no black people are not genetically dumber than whites. It has been answered dozens of times in this very thread.
The only reason to keep asking this question is if YOU THINK THEY MAY BE RIGHT AND BLACK PEOPLE ARE DUMBER THAN WHITES.
In which case, have at it…I’ll have nothing more to do with this.
welp assuming it is true that evolution may have given people from the motherland greater athletic ability, it still takes a great deal of nurturing of that talent to develop great athletes. Otherwise, competition at sporting event would be far more stiff if everyone n they mom had speed, stamina and athleticism to compete at the highest levels.
Similarly, assuming she is right (though I STRONGLY disagree) and afr. ams are genetically less intelligent therefore requiring more effort to learn, then that condtition is furthered by the LACK of equal educational opportunities, and the supposed disparities in intelligience can still be mostly attributed to the fact that the same educational nurturing and investment is not made in black (or poor for that matter) people
then that condtition is furthered by the LACK of equal educational opportunities, and the supposed disparities in intelligience can still be mostly attributed to the fact that the same educational nurturing and investment is not made in black (or poor for that matter) people
i think, achievement-wise, theres a bit of learned-helplessness thrown in there as well
Can we talk about the white ppl who get ahead b/c they are wealthy &, well, white!?!? I really wonder how well all these white folks would do on standardized exams & what not sans their privilege…
Can we talk about the white ppl who get ahead b/c they are wealthy &, well, white!?!?
sure. no one’s stopping you
You know what’s racist? Those Kobe LA Times pictures!
Lemme stop. Didn’t read the email yet, but planning to when I turn my brain on for Tuesday. Lookin’ forward to the discussion in the morning!
seriously, forget about intelligence. i don’t think we’ve evolved far enough as a species to truly understand those kobe pictures yet. maybe that’s how we’ll all dress on mars in 2410
This totally explains your whole ‘basketball wives’ theory in them being from the future. Maybe the players are too.
Or he’s just gay, who knows?
champ, first & foremost, this was a fantastic article, very well articulated. and second, this doesn’t surprise me, because yt has and will continue to make this claim no matter how many black people come up and rule the modern world. but i disagree with the theory that blacks are genetically inclined to be less intelligent, for the simple fact that before european mountain people even conceived the idea of a canoe, Africans were in Africa establishing African universities that people from all over the world were attending. i think any race of people, when presented with the right opportunities, will excell intellectually without bias. its ridiculous to assume underwise, how did she feel so entitled as to say this?
Why do we still have to have this conversation today to prove that black people are not inherently intellectually inferior to whites and that whites are intellectually superior to us?!?! I will NEVER EVER believe that whites are more intelligent than black people simply on the basis of their lack of melanocyte activity!!
“I will NEVER EVER believe that whites are more intelligent than black people simply on the basis of their lack of melanocyte activity!!”
do you think we (blacks) are a superior race?
This is obviously written by a person who does not know very many black people personally.
Is it me, or does YT make it seem as though there are only sprinkles of exceptional black folk dispersed through out the massive sea of dumba$$, criminal minded, baby mamma, monkey lookin ninjas? OOOhhhhh this ish burns me up! I know my comment is a little off…. but This reminds me of the time I had a Bar-b-que @ my home, and invited a few co-workers(2520′s). They would always invite me to parties, so i thought it wold be nice to have them over… I would just assume they thought i lived in the projekks by their reactions to my home when they walked into my front door. The customer service manager passed the comment “……. you never told me you had a swimming pool!”… like who goes around telling people they have a swimming pool. wtf? When we got back to work, the talk of the day was about how beautiful and clean they thought my home was. I guess you could say I felt the way a woman that wore her hair natural would feel the very first time she wore a “pressed” do in public around yt’s that she sees every day……
At least the whitey’s didn’t say, “What? You guys SWIM??” LOL!!
I completely disagree with her e-mail for a long list of reasons. Where is she even gathering her data to back up her e-mail? I completely don’t believe African-Americans are “genetically predisposed to be less intelligent,” but instead are disadvantaged when it comes to getting access to an equal education and facing racism. I grew up in a white suburb and was in the top of my class for most of my upbringing, but that didn’t stop my teachers from telling my parents that I wouldn’t amount to anything or undergrad professors telling me that I wouldn’t get into grad school (which I did and graduated with a 3.9 GPA). I see the disadvantages in education everyday and that’s what affects how people excel in education, not their race. Sorry, but I don’t buy this argument at all.
Yes…there is a lack of equality of opportunity in many areas with high black populations! If we all had the same resources as upper crust 2520′s this conversation…would still probably still exist because of the need of some 2520′s to constantly break down a black person’s spirit in order to get ahead. If black people really were inferior to whites than they would not even need to say it. It would JUST BE.
“some 2520’s to constantly break down a black person’s spirit in order to get ahead”
This is so true. I just don’t know where the idea that we’re less intelligent than white people comes from. I’ve taken classes with many students who grew up in Africa and they outscored everyone and complained that college in the US was too easy. I had a couple of friends (one from Ghana, one from Ethiopia) who majored in Math in college and never showed up to class with a notebook and graduated with a near perfect GPA. To me, it’s not genetics but access to an equal education system that is hindering us as a whole.
“To me, it’s not genetics but access to an equal education system that is hindering us as a whole.”
*Slow clap*
Exactly!
“but instead are disadvantaged when it comes to getting access to an equal education and facing racism. ”
She never said that this wasnt true. The existence of this does not have any bearing on the existence of genetic inferiority/superiority. Secondly, she didnt allude to achievement levels of black ppl either. She might go on to say something like that black people achieve in other ways (a racist comment nonetheless but different than what you arguing)
Ultimately, many of the comments refuting Stephanie Grace are based in the same type of information that her opinions are.
“Ultimately, many of the comments refuting Stephanie Grace are based in the same type of information that her opinions are.”
I totally agree, Peyso, and I think that was Champ’s point in pointing out how many Black folks automatically assume or believe that we’re superior in many things. Although certain things such as intelligence and physical prowess maybe like comparing apples to oranges, I think many people are being more emotional oppose to presenting anything substantial just as Stephanie Grace really didn’t.
I was upset at first, I think really because I don’t like the insinuation that one race/group is genetically predisposed to being better than the next at anything. I was also mad because when these things are said it feels like its always about us (African-Americans.) People have spent centuries studying, researching and trying to prove that our intellect is inferior to everyone else and that is infuriating. However, (as difficult as this is to type) if we are genetically predisposed to a lower intellect that just makes everything we’ve done that much more impressive. And its not an excuse for anyone to not do their best in school or in life in general.
All that being said, I read this article* earlier today and after reading it and understanding her email in context I really don’t have a problem with it. If you don’t feel like reading the link basically Stephanie Grace and a few friends got together and purposefully have convos about controversial issues, that day (a few months back) they were having a convo about affirmative action. She had some thoughts later she hadn’t said during the convo and wrote them in an email and sent it to the people who’d participated in the original convo. Flashfoward to two weeks ago, one of the chicks in the group and Stephanie get in to it and to get “revenge” the broad forwards this email to the Black Law Students. The revenge broad btw has written some controversial emails to the editor her-damn-self.
Look was it dumb for her to email this around? Yes – let that be a lesson to all of us. But knowing the full story I can’t be mad. My friends and I do the same thing. We call it having an Uncomfortable Conversation and they are always fun, maddening, interesting and uncomfortable. I encourage everyone to do the same thing – get four or five friends from different backgrounds together and pick an uncomfortable topic to talk about and see what happens. End of diatribe.
*http://gawker.com/5529322/racist-harvard-law-email-the-cat-fight-that-turned-into-a-national-scandal-updated?skyline=true&s=i
That’s a fab idea. I think my friends & I do this unofficially, but it’d be much more fun to do it officially…
I’m telling you! We try to do it on breaks from school. We just pick a night and we all get together at someone’s house. We talk about everything from interracial relationships to should college athletes get paid to immigration to was the Jheri Curl really the worst/most embarrassing hairstyle ever? You’d be shocked even our “silly” conversations get heated. At the end of the night though its all love and its all good.
was the Jheri Curl really the worst/most embarrassing hairstyle ever?
yup. i’m struggling to think of one that can top it.
“We talk about everything from interracial relationships to should college athletes get paid to immigration to was the Jheri Curl really the worst/most embarrassing hairstyle ever?”
^ No. I’d argue finger waves on a man is. But a good Bully Ray Cyrus style mullet trumps all of that.
I’ll say this anybody who ever had a Curl is ashamed and has done their best to burn all tose pics. So I think that it is the most embarrassing hair trend ever, but some of my friends argue for the Gumby….who knows. The rat tail maybe….
“Uncomfortable Conversation” – So THAT’s what it was called the day I said on Twitter that Eazy E didn’t get HIV from a woman. Or drugs. Or blood transfusion. Gotcha.
He didn’t. Really.
How did he get it then?!?
Did he meet a guy or something of that nature?!?
I think it’s very dangerous to assume that the “context” excuses the content of her message, especially because she will potentially be posed to influence decisions that have real consequences.
“Especially because she will potentially be posed to influence decisions that have real consequences.” – This is actually more dangerous. The constitution shouldnt and cannot be applicable in one direction. She cant be persecuted for her ideas, that is unfair and unconstituional
Who said something about persecuting her for her ideas? I don’t think she should be hung. However, I absolutely think her clerkship should be at stake. Absolutely.
“she will potentially be posed to influence decisions that have real consequences.”
So do the her peers in Harvard’s Black Law Student Assoc. and this just gives them another reminder as to why they have to be about their business just like the White students around them. That being said, I’m also not mad at her because I want lawyers and judges who are engaging in dialogues. At least she seems interesting in thinking about and exploring issues. Just because I don’t agree with her doesn’t mean she can’t work through those thought and ideas. At least she hasn’t just picked a stance and remained stagnant in it – like the judge in Louisiana who wouldn’t marry interracial couples.
Word! Nothing further to add.
“get four or five friends from different backgrounds together and pick an uncomfortable topic to talk about and see what happens”
i used to do this, but we called it “thursday nights in college” and it usually ended with someone having sex
Did these conversations take place with liquor around?
if they don’t, they should.
The ancient Egyptians were black folks.
They built the pyramids, among other things.
Eliminate the imbalance of power, oppression, depression, and the stress of unrelenting racism, and more of us could find our genius, again.
If this comment was a person, it’d be whoever came up w/ KoolAid. THAT is how awesome it is. Carry on.
“Eliminate the imbalance of power, oppression, depression, and the stress of unrelenting racism, and more of us could find our genius, again”
have we even lost it?
@ Champ
Me: Eliminate blah blah blah and we can find our genius, again.
You: “have we even lost it?
No, not anymore than a seed loses it’s genetic potential.
A young tree or plant that grows in a poor or hostile environment with insufficient light and nurturance will have a much harder time becoming all that it can be. Change the environment for that plant OR future seeds of it, and genetic potential can better express itself.
Many of us grow up in the soil of racism and hate, which choke off a lot of nutrients. As a group, it’s hard to fully blossom under those circumstances.
That was my point.
This isnt an appropriate response to the email though.
You are playing the devil’s advocate like none other. LOL
I am curious to know what is an “appropriate” response?
KIT mentions that she does not believe there is a genetic difference of intelligence between races… based on the fact that historically, people of African Descent have shown tremendous “intelligent” abilities… How is that NOT an appropriate response?
I know where you stand: constitutionally the chick has the right to say what she says. And we all agree with that. Now, next stop is what, according to you sir, is a good “rebuttal” of that theory… or is there no rebuttals possible at all?
I would love to read an answer from you.
@ Sula – I dont think that she’s right. I think she’s a racist. But I’m willing to admit that my feelings come from my gut and not from much else (and maybe a little bit from that NIgeria comment). An appropriate response, IMHO, is one that responds directly to her idea. It explains why “intelligence” cannot be transmitted via genetics. It doesnt use the same methodolgy that she uses to make counterclaims. It doesnt mistake an assertion for a question. It acknowledges that you sometime may reach a valid conclusion despite the premises being faulty.
The fact that we are the descendants of the first scientist and the people who created the first universities has no bearing on the concept. KIT wrote “Eliminate the imbalance of power, oppression, depression, and the stress of unrelenting racism, and more of us could find our genius, again.” – We could have done all of that inspite of being genetically inferior. Also, she didnt address our historical achievements so we cant say that she’s refuting them.
The only “good” rebuttal is one that is proven. But the absence of proving something doesnt not equal disapproval
Peyso, Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
Or, are you a “conservative” mole, infiltrating this site, trying to set the agenda for what shouldn’t be discussed, and trying to assassinate a real sista by calling her racist?
Ain’t you a piece of work? That’s the standard operating procedure of the white racist and their sellouts, to twist things and label blacks what they are themselves. .
You attempted a sly, character assassination again when you wrote, “Also, she didnt address our historical achievements so we cant say that she’s refuting them.”
Yes I did. I tossed out a link to the history of the ancient Egyptians, something often overlooked. I assume most people here know about black American historical achievements, and did not feel compelled to list them.
This hardly means I refute them, you hater. I also don’t like the sexist disrespect that came in the context of your calling me “the chick” – and I’m not one to moan about sexism easily, but you… damn, your last comment is full of disinformation and oozing with unwarranted hate.
I notice, “Peyso” aka Mr. Wolf In Sheep’s Clothing, that you don’t have a link to your name or a blog that you care to share with the rest of us. I can’t help but wonder if you’re the epitome of one of “the infected ones” I wrote about in my current post.
Y’all come read it. Here’s the link: Heal or Die: The Challenge To That Diseased Place On The Map.
And Peyso, don’t even think about leaving me a comment on my blog. Far as I’m concerned, you’re a troll.
@Peyso,
The only “good” rebuttal is one that is proven.
But the theory she is offering is not proven either… so how are we supposed to offer a proven rebuttal to a unproven assertion or question as you stated?
And also, we may be able to arrive to a “true” conclusion using faulty assumptions but that doesn’t make that conclusion “valid”… Until we have a VALID way to arrive to a conclusion can we assuredly deem this conclusion TRUE.
Until then, we are all just “opinionating” away… just like Ms. Grace is doing. And that, my friend, is a valid form of rebuttal: an opinion for another opinion.
Addendum. Peyso didn’t do “the chick” comment, so I stand corrected on this. Coming from the context of Sula, it was not offensive b/c Sula wasn’t attacking me, and btw, thanks for the support.
I’ll also add that Peyso said, “But the absence of proving something doesnt not equal disapproval.”
My interpretation: we can prove blacks are dumb, that doesn’t mean they aren’t.
Hmmm. Interesting how that appears to be his recurring theme throughout this post… Steph Grace might have a job for him.
Damn, I’m so angry I can hardly type straight. Ms. Grace thinks blacks are stupid.
I used the achievements of the old Egyptians as proof they are not.
Peyso said, “But the absence of proving something doesnt not equal disapproval.”
My interpretation: he (Peyso) or she (Grace) can’t prove blacks are dumb, that doesn’t mean they aren’t.
Their “proof” is refusing to validate black achievements offered as proof that we are just as good as any other race.
It’s disgraceful.
@KIT – I’m not sure you understand me. What I am saying is that I don’t agree w/ SG but my disagreement does not come from a logical place. Its a gut action. LOGICALLY, nothing you said refutes anything ÿou said. Maybe I suck at articulating my ideas but I have no problem w/ the way anyone feels. My problem is w/ why ppl feel that way
Peyso, I hardly know what to say. The way your words flowed makes it look like I was the one being called a racist, etc.
What Stephanie Grace said is such an infuriating topic – on top of all the other media and GOP bull, that are nothing less than hate crimes we have to endure on a daily basis – that black folks are having a fit. I was so angry I could barely get my own thoughts together when I saw what you wrote.
Anyway, I rarely hold grudges, as I do believe that solidarity is critical for our survival at this point in time, because the next step after the fringe ‘confirms’ what they want to believe, is putting us back on plantations since to them, we’re not smart enough to have equal opportunity (not they haven’t already in the prisons), and perhaps, followed by mass extermination.
Anyway, your explanation of it being a misunderstanding is accepted. Being so pissed off myself that I can barely see the keyboard, I understand.
We’re talking about Sub-Saharan Africans, Egyptians were more Arabic.
@Alos
“We’re talking about Sub-Saharan Africans, Egyptians were more Arabic.”
Not historically. This is arguably true as far as recent history. There are Arabs that can easily pass for “African”.
I am not completely sold on the all Black or all Arab Egypt thing. I have looked into once or twice though. All I know is that their were definitely several Black Pharaohs.
The kingdom of Kush in Nubia was “subsaharan” as you put it…
And I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that IF, little Ms. Grace, African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent, that it is because they have your ancestors blood running through their veins.
*rolls eyes*
She’s on that bull. Until now, I didn’t waste time entertaining her opinion. Someone should tell her, “He who restrains his lips is wise,” Proverbs 10:19
“And I absolutely do not rule out the possibility that IF, little Ms. Grace, African Americans are, on average, genetically predisposed to be less intelligent, that it is because they have your ancestors blood running through their veins.”
burn!!
*applause*
THIS was my comment. totally and completely. i’m just now getting a chance to read this… but that was my initial reaction.
Clap…..clap…..clap……clap..clap..clap.clapCLAPCLAPCLAP! (Standing O)
I’M SO DONE WITH RACISM…I mean so done, that I’m OVERDONE! So tired of throwin’ this phrase at anyone not willing to validate us in some way, shape or form. I mean unlessn yous acall’in my brother Kunta & me Kizzie, I could give a fcuk! Why? Because. I. Validate. Myself.
I’m quite aware that I’m probably one of the more intelligent
darkiesnon-Whites people with this mindset will ever happen upon and it’s okay. I’m not gonna jump on the conference table and yell out “The Jig is Up!” Cuz while there’s just the one me, then there are all of you… who will be one of the more intelligentdarkies non-Whites that others of her ilk encounter. Then word will spread to the point that we’re no longer touted as an anomaly. And that’s what will ultimately dispel the sentiment espoused in stealthily typed semi-taboo messages sent balazing across our beloved internets by earnest law students with little else to do…Damn you, strikethrough!
I think your comment struck itself through b/c it didn’t validate itself. #shruglife
AHHHH, this was gonna come sooner or later but I like to take a shot:
When I found out about her email my first thought was to laugh. In my head “Why of course!!!, has their ever been a time in American history where atleast five white people who were in a position of power wanted to remind the Afro-Am. community that their under par?” As much as I would like to get on her case, further investigation is pointing toward this event as a private email between to friends(or enemies) about the importance of Affirmative Action.
*Cue eye-roll* Again with the “Affirmative Action brings lazy (Any POC) to (name random ivy school) rather than someone who has earn the right to be there. AGAIN with me or someone who know about the “Bell Curve” explaining that she ignore all the social issues that effect children of color. That she probably didn’t consider that affirmative action has help white women more than any other demographic. That she or the person who is defending her does not explain how one is consider “intelligent”. Can it be about knowing alot history? Being good at law? Being an expert in cooking? Being a very good writer? Speaking more than one language??
This lady looks at the movie How High like its a documentary.
Not only was she wrong but now she is face with being a Harvard student who sounds like a complete racist. How about Ms. Grace explains in an email that being a 3L Law student makes you forget about self-incrimination. SMH, a walking example that anything you post, email, twitter or record can come back at you. Hope she lose her priceless internship.
(The power of Karma)
“also, because basketball is the only of the major world sports that requires each of its participants to run, jump, throw, catch, and move laterally while also possessing at least an above average amount of bodily-kinesthetic intelligence,…”
Really? Guess you never heard of soccer.
I thought the same thing when I read that line.
um, soccer players(other than the goalie) can’t use their hands…so no, they dont throw.
“um, soccer players(other than the goalie) can’t use their hands…so no, they dont throw.”
thank you, knightnick.
Players do throw the ball in at times when it is out of the boundary – its called a throw-in. The referee decides. This usually happens in the side lines of the pitch, whereas free kicks happen on either end of the pitch. http://www.soccer-fans-info.com/soccer-throw-in.html
Thank you, Lindile.
“Players do throw the ball in at times when it is out of the boundary – its called a throw-in. The referee decides. This usually happens in the side lines of the pitch, whereas free kicks happen on either end of the pitch. http://www.soccer-fans-info.com/soccer-throw-in.html”
quarterback’s catch passes at times too, but thats not part of their job description. anyway, my point was that basketball’s the only one of the major team sports where everyone is required to do all of the things i listed all of the time, not just during special circumstances.
This is the apology she sent the Harvard BSLA:
“I am deeply sorry for the pain caused by my email. I never intended to cause any harm, and I am heartbroken and devastated by the harm that has ensued. I would give anything to take it back.
I emphatically do not believe that African Americans are genetically inferior in any way. I understand why my words expressing even a doubt in that regard were and are offensive.
I would be grateful to have an opportunity to share my thoughts and to apologize to you in person.
Even beforehand, I want to extend an apology to you and to anyone else who has been hurt by my actions.”
——————————————————————–
See I personally hate when people say f*cked up sh*t and then when word gets out of what they said or the wrong people find out, they issue some bullsh*t apology. OWN YOUR SH*T you white supremacist racist beeeeeee-atch!!
That is all for now.. Will return in the AM when the cobwebs have cleared and I can offer some attempt at intellectual commentary. Thank you and goodnight.
I agree. What is she sorry for? Having an opinion. It was a bullsh*t opinion but at least she had one. Now she’s sorry. Now she didn’t mean it. Oh please, you meant that sh*t.
Uh… I ain’t buyin yo brand ( h/t to Any Given Sunday).
Now, if she had merely said what she believed and then backpedaled with a half @ssed apology I could have ridden with that, but she wrote this down in black and white. So you are insinuating that I can’t read words on a screen now?
I see what you wrote and you said what you said. You got to claim it now.
Again let this be a lesson, plausible deniability aka don’t leave your really real thoughts in black and white.
@LaBakir & BKSweetheart
I also agree. If thats how you feel thats how you feel. Own it and ride with it. Don’t back down. I just wish more 2520s would put this out in the open so everyone knows where they stand.
@ BK Sweetheart
I agree…OWN your ish. She’s not sorry and she was oh so serious when she sent out this email. To draw up an email of that caliber AFTER a dinner party, when the convo was said and done…only proves how passionately she feels about her opinion.
See I personally hate when people say f*cked up sh*t and then when word gets out of what they said or the wrong people find out, they issue some bullsh*t apology. OWN YOUR SH*T
i agree. for once i’d like somebody to say, “yes. that was exactly what i meant. sh*t, i repeat it to myself everytime i brush my teeth”
She had to if she ever wants to work again.
“yes. that was exactly what i meant. sh*t, i repeat it to myself everytime i brush my teeth”
Lol! I’m tired of the BS apologies too.
Uuuhhh… somebody did. His name is Jeremiah Wright.
was it wrong, racist, or just not very politically correct?
Absolutely.
also, do you think it’s possible that evolution has allowed for people in certain parts to be predisposed to be better at certain things?
Yes, but intellectual capacity isn’t among them.
“Yes, but intellectual capacity isn’t among them.”
How do you know?
Because intellectual capacity can not be effectively measured, young folks.
You can time a run, you can measure a jump. You can time how fast someone recovers from a disease or how long a person sustains the cold/heat/whatchamacallit… but there is no definite way to measure “intellectual capacity”…
What makes a person intelligent, pray tell? If we have definitive markers that are free of cultural bias and/or personality types, then we can start measuring it… until then, let’s try not to.
“Because intellectual capacity can not be effectively measured, young folks.” – Just because it isnt measurable now doesnt mean that it never will be measurable. There was a time when we could NOT EFFECTIVELY measure how long a person sustains the elements or runs or jumps.
I ask how do you know intelligence is not passed genetically b/c no proof does not equal untrue.
Why would evolution stop at the neck?
wow, just wow. i will definitely be on VSB while in my final day of lecture tomorrow for the comments. and i am not sure i understand what westindianarchie is saying, but maybe it’s because i’m pretty much asleep.
Talking about whether or not we’re less intelligent without any concrete conclusions has the potential to subconsciously engrain an inferiority complex in your mind. One of my professors did a study on ivy league students, and she compared those who came from the same type of background – school, family, neighborhood, etc – and they still did worse overall. I heard this freshman year, and it messed with me for a while before I decided that was bull and got myself together.
Part of me always wondered about the tests they used in studies to determine intelligence and whether or not they’re culturally biased. One thing I have learned is that black people sometimes just reason differently than whites/non-minorities. This is what some comedians make their living off of pointing out. If the test was set up with some specific cultural reasoning, then it makes sense that those not of that culture wouldn’t do as well.
And no, putting names like ‘Keisha’ and ‘Jamal’ to the same questions will not help (I’m looking at you, SAT people).
i have done quite an amount of studying on the research(es) myself, and one University that did a study on this was able to come up with a reason behind why even under the same circumstances Black students still performed below their yt counterparts.
whether we like it or not , people tend to perform according to how they are expected to perform (a study was done on that too) , which is why a lot of people tend to follow stereotypes(but that’s another topic).Blck students who perform above their blck peers sometimes get ridiculed by their peers for that,so they are cast out of their racial group. when they try to integrate with their yt peers they also shunned because 1. they are not a very accepted race and 2. they are from a race that has always been considered less intelligent .
this causes the blck student to SUBCONSCIOUSLY under-perform , in the hopes of being accepted by either group because they have finally conformed to what was thought of them. SELF-SABOTAGE (just to fit in somewhere).
i’m going to bed now
I know the study you’re referencing. I can’t recall the specifics at the moment, but I believe it was carried out by an African Economist named Ogwu who looked at AA youths in the suburbs in Detroit back before Detroit got bad. The community actually came out of pocket and financed the study, not a University if I remember correctly.
The study was flawed. It had to do with the sample that was used for study. I think it was the fact that the sample consisted mainly of middle class African Americans who came from two parent homes, in the suburbs. That particular sample of African American crumb snatchers were worried about being ‘not black enough’ but I think one of the main points was that the results could not be extrapolated to other populations of AA crumb snatchers, particularly those raised in an urban setting, coming from a single parent home.
Take this with a grain of salt though, it’s 5:15AM and I’m supposed to be finishing up my psychopathology final, not reading VSB.
That was Shaker Heights, OH, not Detroit.
Black American students in an affluent suburb: a study of academic disengagement
John U. Ogbu
Thank you so much for the correction. I was racking my brain this morning trying to remember it.
“people tend to perform according to how they are expected to perform (a study was done on that too) , which is why a lot of people tend to follow stereotypes(but that’s another topic).”
this is true
“Blck students who perform above their blck peers sometimes get ridiculed by their peers for that,so they are cast out of their racial group”
this is not. while i’m sure this has happened before, its nowhere near as widespread as people make it out to be. now, nerdy, socially awkward kids get picked on everywhere, but i’ve yet to meet a smart black person who was cast out of the sea of blackness for being smart, and this is someone who taught for four years in the blackest school district in pennsylvania.
Gladwell wrote something about this in Blink.
A potential reason for the disparity in scores might be due to stereotype threat.
In essence; it’s been demonstrated that if a class full African American college students are given a test, their results are somewhat dependent on the race of the person administering the exam.
Black teacher – Black students: scores were fine. (Baseline)
White teacher – Black students: scores were significantly lower.
White teacher – Black Teacher Aid – Black Students: scores did not differ significantly from the baseline condition.
This is research I think they finished up last semester at Howard’s Social Psychology department. The implications for the case for HBCUs and diversity in the classroom are huge.
This was in reply to TrinaRe…
The study I’m talking about is by Camille Charles, a book called The Source of the River: The Social Origins of Freshmen at America’s Selective Colleges and Universities. It basically said most of the things you said.
Yeah, f**k that b**ch. No she isn’t remotely correct in the slightest sense. None of us should have to explain ourselves, much less our intelligence, but in the essence of discussion here we go. History, anthropology and studies on black babies prove the contrary of this ignorant woman’s claims. The idea that any person can question intelligence of African American’s after overcoming the odds we have has a people (also true of the entire diaspora) and still maintain sanity, humanity, presence of mind, spirit, culture (whether through tradition or genetic memory), creativity, and more is insane. America’s own racist history proves the contrary. From being considered less than human, to property, to it being illegal for African American’s to know how to read and for anyone to teach African American’s how to read, we have maintained, survived, thrived, achieved and overcome in the worst of circumstances.
I’d also wager that VSS’s and VSB’s are not hypocrites. It is clear if we brag or generalize about supposed black traits we are doing so in jest, to make a point, or to simply talk ‘ish. No different that an Irish person making a stereotypical claim about their culture, an Italian, etc. etc. At no time has any black person committed funded research to having basketball on lock based on a genetic predisposition that non-blacks simply can not compete with. At no time have we said, why even try? At no time have we said non-blacks need to hang it up and get off the court. The need for superiority to act in such a way to deny anyone the right to simply “be” is just beyond abominable and wicked. Historically that has been done, but not by us and not our M.O.
Once this letter was revealed, those that revealed the letter were accused of character assassination and that they tried to block Grace’s federal clerkship. This was false and not true (honestly, I wouldn’t have been mad if it was). However even if it was, how can one dare utter “character assassination” when the author clearly wrote that and felt that way. She assassinated herself. After Harvards BLSA wrote a letter condemning the e-mail but not wanting to be associated with it, they were criticized for not taking this as an opportunity to have a discussion on race. I can understand both points of view on this, but as BLSA stated they are trying to focus on their exams and not this b.s.(<–my word, not theirs) Thus, I am inclined to think that those petitioning for a teachable moment on race can eat a d**k! We had generations of teachable moments where we were terrorized so someone else could learn tolerance. Again, this is exam time. Why must we always create time to help somebody understand their jacked up sense of entitlement and prejudice? She wouldn't feel the need to discuss or learn anything if she didn't get caught. One of the links claims Grace issued an apology, which they (Above The Law) haven't been able to obtain. I highly doubt the apology is because she realizes she was very, very, wrong. She just mad her spot is blown and folks know she is "that racist person". The utterly jacked up thing is that this person is going to have influence on law and probably be just fine and thinking the same garbage after this blows over. My optimistic side hopes that this ordeal and experience will show her just how wrong she is. I won't hold my breath though.
@legitimate_soul
I posted the apology upthread – pure BS!!
“It is clear if we brag or generalize about supposed black traits we are doing so in jest, to make a point, or to simply talk ‘ish. No different that an Irish person making a stereotypical claim about their culture, an Italian, etc. etc”
apples and hand grenades. there’s a difference between tongue-in-cheek stereotypical claims (ie fiery latinas or drunk irishmen) and believing (as many of us do) that you’re (generally) superior athletically.
^However, you missed another major aspect of my point. At no time have we paid for research to try to tout our superiority. If we are doing fine in our lane, our M.O. is not to block other lanes for anyone else. Actually in most cases, when we get on so does EVERYONE else.
This B!tch…she shot herself in the foot. If anything she just proved her own UNintelligence.
In this tough economy, she really limited her job opportunites. If she sits a bench or prosecutes there will be all kind of appeals. Her e-mail/apology will chase her ass down like a dog.
Because not only are we smart…but we are opportunist. I bet a lot of “one drop” criminals will claim that drop to get off if her ass is ever attached to a case. lol.
hey people!!
let’s clear up a few things.
i will use the word black instead of AA because i am the first but not the latter , but to a beeyootch like that she meant our people in general.
now , white people are not more intelligent than black people. but if you want to think so let’s take a look at the rest of the world;
some African countries have for a very long time been writing British standard (Cambridge) exams along with the British (mostly white ) students at the end of high school and consistently passed above and beyond way past the Brits. the results of these exams were always published until the few whites in the African countries noticed that 95 (yeah that’s right) % of the top 70th percentile consisted of the African students (read black) so they stopped publishing the results in the newspapers.
now , back to the USA, why don’t the black kids do as well as the white kids in school/career wise? besides other things (opportunity, access, background,etc) it is mostly PERCEPTION my dear champ.most white kids come from safe, two parent households,they are taught the importance of work ethic,patience and perseverance.black children need role models who are up close and personal too,unfortunately most do not have them,looking at a black CEO on tv motivates, but not as much. if his subconciously chosen role models are the ones hustling on the corner, saying they can’t get a job cos of racism,coming and going whenever they want ,making it look fun,is he going to grow and develop just like the white kid? do you think he is going to want to work 25 yrs to be a CEO who is mostly confined to an office?
highly unlikely. the white kid is told and sees evidence that it has been done before and so develops the perception that he can do it too,but the black kid witnesses, hears and is exposed to no such thing,thus develops a negative perception,and is therefore not motivated to put effort and show that he/she has brains..
i’m sure we all know why Africa is in such a poor state, so i won’t go there. but we are intelligent. my black counterparts in Africa were much better competition than the whiteys whose arses i whip everyday in college.
I agree with most of this. Wanted to add that Africa is in a poor state from pure boolsheet stemming from colonialism. The British ran through there and EFFed some stuff up. Then picked up their crap and said “ok we’re done. Now pick up the pieces.”
Also, I’ve been lucky enough to also school in Nigeria. I was doing Algebra in like the 3rd grade. America’s educational curriculum was so unchallenging when I got here that I skipped a grade.
Moral of the story:
Africans ruleBlack folks are smart.uum… basically.
Hey Luvvster!
Not just the British. The Belgium and the Portuguese and other Europeans nations did some f-ed some stuff up royally as well. A Portuguese friend of mine talked about how members of her family who were colonizing Mozambique in the 1970′s destroyed their farms when the indigenous people (the revolutionaries) took control and kicked them out. If the Europeans couldn’t have the wealth, they damn sure weren’t going to let the Africans have it. You should look up the Berlin Conference too.
It was wrong, racist, and not politically correct.
Wrong because first, you have to define intelligence and a way to evaluate it. How is she defining ‘intelligent’?
What is her basis for intelligence? How is she evaluating intelligence? Is she using wealth, numbers (population), education, etc. We don’t know because she doesn’t say (I read the entire email–I’ve been reading that site since 2nd yr). Her statement is broad and indefinite. She does not say what ‘evidence’ she is using to draw these conclusions. Which brings me to the second point…
Generalizing an entire ethnicity/race as less than intelligent without ANY evidence or rationale is racist. Most of the so called ‘intelligence’ tests distributed are culturally biased. These test are more closely related to measuring how bourgeoisie an individual is rather than intellect. Many of these tests measure intelligence by gauging vocabulary, geography, etc. all of which say more about where you are from and what you have access to (socially & economically) rather than how well you process information. This is equivalent to me rolling up on some 2520′s asking them to use “L” in 3 different sentences:
1. If you keep saying Black people are less than intelligent around me, you will take an L. (laughs)
2. After I finished punching him for saying Black people are less than intelligent, we decided to smoke an L. (laughs)
3. When the cops came to talk to him, he could not speak, but he made his hand in the shape of an L. (laughs)
but seriously; it’s more cultural than scientific.
The racism goes both ways though; just as the example you gave about AA basketball players can be considered racist. I think the AA players in the NBA represent the upper echelon of AA basketball players, which can’t be used to evaluate athleticism of the entire race, because they are the exception, not the rule (one word: Lebron). An accurate assessment would be taking an ‘average’ Black guy comparing him with a guy from another ethnicity with the same background, physical conditioning, etc. to determine who naturally has more muscle, agility, speed, etc. To get a more realistic view I think you need to compare averages rather than exceptions. (Sidebar: I agree with you conclusion, I just disagree with how you arrived there). In this country, when people see a kid 5’10 in junior high, he is immediately given a pair of ankle weights and taught the spider drill (well…he USED to be..). However, if that same kid was in Germany, they may place him in front of a soccer goal; If he were in China, he may be thrown into a pool and taught freestyle & breaststroke swimming techniques; and if that kid were in Cuba, he may be given a baseball and taught how to throw a 4 seam fastball.That’s more cultural than genetic; here, basketball is a cultural and economic phenomenon. Money is the motivation (word to jeezy).
It’s not politically correct for obvious reasons. I keep telling my friends that it’s not the raving lunatic teabagger wearing cowboy boots dating his cousin with the confederate flag on his F-150 we need to worry about: it’s people like Grace.
This situation just happened to come to light, but imagine all the conversations like this that happened before, etc. See, the thing is, we (the public) didn’t observe the entire dialogue. So due to one person’s outrage,irritation, and unknown motive, we only see one aspect in one instance of a particular conversation. A better idea of what we are up against: go look at the comments section in regard to all of the posts on this subject on that site; that’s what we’re up against.
That brings me to the last thing: If you read Elie’s post in regard to the BLSA at Harvard, it epitomizes my disgust and frustration with some of these ‘so-called’ talented tenth brothers & sisters. They are never about ish! The main ones ‘flexing’ intellectually, trying to be snarky, sarcastic, speaking on their ivy-league education, etc. but when faced with BOLD-FACED RACISM…they’re quiet. Nothing. I wanna take my Ruger to these clowns first. Their ambition has neutered their common sense and decency. Always having meetings about a meeting to meet up and do something rather than simply…..doing something. I these ni&&az. All this bullish talk about “my degree from X” or “grad school at Y” and when someone spits in their face, their trying to rationalize and evaluate “what’s going on, why, how can we resolve it, etc.” rather than just kickin’ some a$$!!!! I shutter to think how far behind we would be if some of these guys were up against the like of the racists that ran amok during the early part of the 20th century. Sigh. Again…We have alot of work to do…tired, more tomorrow…
Bond. BlkBond.
Amen Bond. BlkBond.
Especially what you wrote about the cultural impact on sports ability or proficiency. Trying to apply Lebron status to John down the street and then talking about all black people adds little to the conversation.
“I keep telling my friends that it’s not the raving lunatic teabagger wearing cowboy boots dating his cousin with the confederate flag on his F-150 we need to worry about: it’s people like Grace.”
Word.
“What is her basis for intelligence? How is she evaluating intelligence?”
this is a good point. thomas gardner theorizes that there are (at least) 7 different types of intelligences, and most of them are (at this point) unmeasurable.
exactly! i was going to bring up the theory of multiple intelligences but it didn’t gel with comment. this fool doesn’t even understand the concept of intelligence and she is isn’t even aware of the changing views in which it is studied, but she wanna measure somebody’s damn intelligence. mm hmm.
but on another note, the theory of multiple intelligences is another reason why children should be exposed to the arts. keep arts in schools, biatch!
@charli skipper
“but on another note, the theory of multiple intelligences is another reason why children should be exposed to the arts. keep arts in schools, biatch!”
Right. Everybody wants to teach kids to be corporate minion. Sad to say but I don’t think the arts will be seriously backin schools until someone creates a way to effectively commoditize them.
Wrong because first, you have to define intelligence and a way to evaluate it. How is she defining ‘intelligent’?
In a friggin’ nutshell.
A.) I completely feel your post but when you write stuff like this – “I wanna take my Ruger to these clowns” – I don’t know…..somewhere deep down inside I get excited in an unexplainable way….
(Cough, cough, shakes it off.)
Anyway – “I keep telling my friends that it’s not the raving lunatic teabagger wearing cowboy boots dating his cousin with the confederate flag on his F-150 we need to worry about: it’s people like Grace.”
Dick Gregory said it best when he used that description and then said “Now when has a White boy like that ever created law or policy?”
I don’t see the correlation. Athletic ability is directly related to physical makeup. We Know
Physical traits are genetically passed. intelligence is not the same thing and again there is no proof or basis for this.
There are black geniuses, perfect test scores, rhode scholars etc. She gives 2 flimsy as examples but not one would explain a racial difference or the
Reason why she has made the assumption. She is racist. And let’s be real as a harvard law student I’m going to assume she has gone to great schools and had access
To the best educational settings most of her life. So I’m sure the black students sprinkled sparingly in these settings is what she is basing her assumption on. My thumbs are tired
So I can’t go into detail like I want on my phone but its some bullshyt as any “intellectual”
Defense of her argument.
“Physical traits are genetically passed. intelligence is not the same thing and again there is no proof or basis for this.”
thats exactly my point. if there’s no definitive proof, how can anyone really say whether something has the possibility to be true?
Ta-Nehisi Coates and the folks in his blog universe were pretty succinct in their discussion of it and I tend to agree. That, she’s still just in college. Yeah, it’s law school, but it’s still school. Moreover, it’s not likely to hurt her cause with the people that she seems to be running with on the right, it might be seen as a badge of honor and by vilifying her, all people will do is embolden people who truly harbor these beliefs to feel like there’s no real way to have an honest discussion about what’s clearly their ignorance.
Yeah, it address all sorts of other ugly things and points to the problems with trusting that the ivy towers of the Ivy League truly are home to our “best and brightest” but we’ve been saying that for a long time.
In the end, I feel like there were better ways to handle this and yet, that’s expecting too much from the internet. So maybe she “deserves” it according to people and the way people deal with things, but it’s just a nasty, ugly and slippery slope that we’re all sliding down head first without considering the repercussions of “outing” people on the interwebs with heaps of mock outrage and hate without really understanding what the hell we’re really all up in arms about.
It’s her opinion, plain and simple. I personally believe that she could be a bigot or racist but it’s just seems to me extremely politically incorrect. Doesn’t change my day one way or another, because I know that we as black people are some of the most intelligent people God has ever made. No doubt. I believe most of our perceived non-intelligence by white folks comes from mostly cultural upbringing verses strickly genetics.
Some of the most intelligently gifted individuals are living in poverty and violence stricken hoods and use that intelligence to survive by the code of the streets. Only a select few of us maximize our potential by using the education provided (or athletics) and their god given smarts to make it out. Non-exposure by most Black americans to the same education and opportunities that are afforded to our counterparts plays a major factor in maximizing our potential to sit atop the human pymarid of intelligence (in the world’s eyes).
And I’m actually in awe of such people who have the gall to put their beliefs front and center. Only adds to what I believe that i’d rather deal with someone who’s upfront about their bigotry or racism (If that’s what you believe her letter consists of) than to deal with a closet bigot/racist. Just own it and don’t backtrack cause the heat is on now.
She (the clerk) is funny
Seems she must use a eugenics argument to justify her fear of becoming a Hot Wife for a BBC
or maybe there’s just too much media focus on the things that make her take up the opinion
Well! Hell!
If I were a blond woman with big tits, many people would have the same idea of me.
So, let’s chalk it up to the idea that she’s a dumb blonde
first, a word to stephanie grace (what? you know this fool is sitting around somewhere using a university issued laptop to google her name.): honey, you are late. social darwinism was so 8 years ago.
now, on to my comment.
you know what? a few years ago–maybe even a few months or weeks ago–this email would have propelled me into action. i would have pointlessly gone around gathering facts, finding examples, and fine-tuning arguments to prove this person wrong. and to convince myself that i know she’s wrong. i would have indulged this complete stranger–and all the ignorant people i know in real life who share her viewpoint– in her argument by trying to point out why she is wrong. i probably would have given her the benefit of the doubt and allowed room for her suspicions regarding our levels of intelligence because of the fact that, since we’re known for being naturally excellent in so many other areas–sports, comedy, and the all important art of black not crackin’–it’s understandable that she might think that it’s only possible (and fair) that we should be lacking in the area of intelligence. but then i would have rationally reasoned against that. i probably would even have felt the need to excuse the behavior of the ninjas (like white people don’t have their own…..), and gone through the trouble of explaining that those people who show up on maury are not negro representatives and are not indicative of our levels of intelligence as a whole.
but you know what else? at this point, i have come to realize that
1) NOT ONLY are white people going to believe whatever the hell they want to believe about black, african american, colored, negros no matter what information or examples are available, BUT ALSO:
2) they don’t really even believe this garbage anyway.
i refuse to buy for one more second of my life that white people truly believe we are ignorant, subpar or anything else. the real issue is that they understand that they are not superior and are innately jealous creatures who are afraid of the day when their jig is officially up and we no longer accept them as the standard of beauty, intelligence, and refinement. that’s the reason for all this sitting the hell around, thinking up “studies” and “reports” talking about how genetically inferior we should know we are and how poor we be, and how “oh lawd, black woman! if you’s lucky enuff to make it through high school you’se nevuh find a man cuz you’s too smart for the negra men’s nah! don’t think you can have it all, jemima!”
please. i’m done with white folks and their ideas about what i’m supposed to be. i don’t buy that mess for a second and i honestly believe that they don’t either.
further, if we want to discuss intellect, have you ever seen a white person struggle over a simple issue? (very commonplace, yet still annoying.) or drone on for minutes to get a simple point across? i mean, i’m not trying to sound like a racist because that solves nothing, but seriously, being less intelligent than your average white person is the least of my issues.
oh, i totally need to remove this avatar with ALLLLLLLLLLLL my face on it. because i have no problem working at the intelligent white man’s job
for now@charli skipper
Great post! I was discussing this with some colleagues at work (next day after I wrote my post) and we were saying the gist of what you properly posted: “They ‘trying’ to hate you, cause they ain’t you.”
“Ni**a, you LOVE my style”- Nas on “Ether”
She is expressing her opinion like many of us do. The reason why it caught so much attention i due to the fact he is an Ivy league law school learned educated woman, and people with that intellect are held to a higher standard than the rest of us, usually. Do i think its wrong no, why not test the grain and go against it….dont we (black americans) do that already? You can call it racism or whatever, but we joke and laugh about racist thing all the time and we always say its just a joke, but when someone attempts to write an educated theory on what they think and it against blacks, we take it as racism. Maybe she has an opinion just like most of yall got an opinion against whites….so whats wrong with it? Did it ruffle some of your feathers cause she is white and stating that some by some genetics we could be dumb?
She just did what most of us are afraid to do…speak out and publicly put it out there without being afraid of ridicule. As blacks we tend to be afraid of opinions that differ from ours and afraid of thinkin that a white person thinks less of us. Let someone challenge theory or the better thought of the majority….then maybe we can see how some people think and operate. Why criticize when we can learn? I applaud her for actually takin the time out and researching this, shows that if she is racist, she isnt scared to voice her opinion. Maybe some of us could try that when we actually have an opinion which we have researched and studied up on.
Til then…i think she is just writing her opinion. Im not offended, cause i know genetically, im not stupid or dumb. If you are offended, then maybe you are genetically….slow.
if she wasn’t afraid why did she apologize?????
Look,
1. She’s a law student, pursuing a Juris Doctorate at Harvard. I’m quite positive that it requires some level of intelligence to get accepted to Harvard’s Law School, that does not mean that her intelligence is generalizable to other fields. Her specialty lies in padding her billable hours and arguing. (I’m fairly biased against Lawyers. All the decent, decent as in people I would be willing to be around, lawyers I know have drinking problems and hate their job.)
2. Far more intelligent people then a Law student have been having this debate for years and years, one of them being my fantastic statistics professor from Howard University, Serge Madhere, fought one of the biggest a*shats in existence, Arthur Jensen, who published a 50 page journal article on this very subject entitled “Thirty years of research on Black-White differences in cognitive ability.” where he made various claims about the hereditary of intelligence and the g factor that were rebutted by my dear professor who challenged Jensen and his colleague Rushton to a public debate, but as my professor so eloquently put in his Haitian accent, “They stalled until Jensen had the good sense to go die.”
3. Beyond that, she acts as if society has come to a consensus on what exactly intelligence is.
We have not. There are several theories of intelligence out there, and various theories of intelligence that run the gambit from the old, obsolete notion of an Intelligence Quotient to theories of intelligence that propose multiple intelligences, such as emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, kinesio intelligence, among others. We have tests that purport to measure intelligence. We have others the claim to measure cognitive abilities. And still others that measure academic achievement.
To say definitively that we know what intelligence is wrong and puts your ignorance on display for the world.
4. Women tend to perform less well in math due at least in part to prenatal levels of testosterone, which also account for variations in mathematics performance within genders.
Trick please. What are your sources? Your citations? I realize this is petty for me to ask, as she has none.
5. She flatly ignores the malleability of intelligence and the effects of nurture on intelligence. With each generation, our average intelligence level has grown approximately 10 points, if I remember the literature correctly. The implications? We either are becoming ‘more intelligent’ at a constant rate, or we’re not necessarily measuring ‘intelligence’ but the level of exposure and acculturation that our children experience.
6. I really, really, really dislike lawyers.
This is what happens when folks get out of pocket talking about sh*t that they obviously have no background in.
In essence, this spoiled little trollop thinks because she can memorize laws and effectively recall the correct laws at the correct time and place she thinks she has a valid opinion on other topics.
Wrong.
Is she racist?
Yep
If you want to use these measures of intelligence, studies show that Asian Americans with higher IQ scores have to 1. work harder 2. get more education to stack the same amount as their Caucasian counterparts who have IQ scores that are lower by 10 points.
So would that make Asian Americans smarter on a genetic level? No, that’s when this triflin’ law student would point to our study habits/home life.
But I thought that didn’t matter…?
Harvard needs to take out the trash.
In essence, this spoiled little trollop thinks because she can memorize laws and effectively recall the correct laws at the correct time and place she thinks she has a valid opinion on other topics.
I reread this, and it sounded overly harsh. Of course! She is welcome to her own opinions, however misinformed and wrong they may be. I am also welcome to mock her for her ignorance. Preferably loudly, and in public.
it wasn’t too harsh. i called white people “innately jealous creatures” upthread. *in my isaiah mustafa voice: we’re on a blog.
I wanted to preemptively engage this a bit:
We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the way in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us.- Nietzsche
3. Beyond that, she acts as if society has come to a consensus on what exactly intelligence is.
And that’s what renders this whole conversation moot.
I will just chuck it up to The Champ having a slow news week… it ain’t easy doing it back to back.
okay, this fool actually sent this email unprovoked to CLARIFY her ignorant position from an earlier conversation. smh. and i’m mad that this is a 3rd year harvard law student who is stupid enough to write this mess down and transmit it through the internet so that everyone will be able to read this for always. good luck with that, stephanie grace.
As all of the VSB/VSSers have already so eloquently stated before me and what I know they will continue to state cause they are some of the smartest folks I have ever found congregated in one online forum , what she said all amounts to “BULLSHYTE”….carry on
As all of the VSB/VSSers have already so eloquently stated before me and what I know they will continue to state cause they are some of the smartest folks I have ever found congregated in one online forum , what she said all amounts to “BULLSHYTE”….carry on
*puts hands in pockets and carries on after applause.
So, I didn’t go through all the comments, and I don’t come from the same background as most (since I am brazilian), but one thing I do know, is that black people are just so good at pointing fingers as white people. Was that girl dumb for saying such things? Probably, but this isn’t an academic research that she’s doing, is her personal opinion. That unfortunately, is personal and though I disagree, I wouldn’t say it’s racist. She saw something that is determined by the environment (more black people having less opportunities), and assumed that was genetic. In no way I believe that the amount of melanine (that for me, is what makes me different from a white person) makes one smarter than the other, though sadly, it can determine the chances one have in life. What we need to do is not bother about what she believes, but make it more about human beings and less about this so called races. If no one cared about this email, it would stay there, forgotten, and her ‘genious’ ideas would not be of public knowledge. But now, we just gave her a chance of not only being heard, but find people just as geniolus as her to agree with that bunch of bull she said.
First 2520s steal african culture and technology our math skills and our astronomical prowess. The names of our African Queens (2 ‘greek constellations’ and our philosophical ideas but now thousands of years after they believe that they came up with it thwey hav e the nerve to call us inferior mentally. If she had any sense she would have put a correlation between the effect colonization, slavery and post slavery racial conditions had on blacks. 2520s fcuked stuff up in this world and now they try and act like it isn’t their doin. Smh
I don’t know if I’m more miffed about her opinion or the length in which one of the VSBs is going in trying to determine if it (Grace’s email) is right.
So if Grace was a tobacco chewing ‘ teabagger’ saying this,you could easily dismiss this (and not write an entry about her bullpoop)? But because she is a student at Harvard, you are debating the idea that on some (small) level she may be right?
Whatever it was, there is no comparison between her serious opinion and the jovial remarks some American blacks make about being tops in atheletics and other areas.
“I don’t know if I’m more miffed about her opinion or the length in which one of the VSBs is going in trying to determine if it (Grace’s email) is right.”
nowhere am i trying to determine if she was/is “right”. all i am saying is that we seem to be hesitant to have conversations about certain uncomfortable (and unproven) topics.
“So if Grace was a tobacco chewing ‘ teabagger’ saying this,you could easily dismiss this (and not write an entry about her bullpoop)? But because she is a student at Harvard, you are debating the idea that on some (small) level she may be right?”
i chose to write about this because its been a hot topic on the internet for the past week. if a tobacco chewing teabagger had their email about race published by every other blog on the internet, i would have written about them as well.
“Whatever it was, there is no comparison between her serious opinion and the jovial remarks some American blacks make about being tops in atheletics and other areas.
why not?
I don’t know if I’m more miffed about her opinion or the length in which one of the VSBs is going in trying to determine if it (Grace’s email) is right.
That made me chuckle.
Honestly… I’m bored with the whole thing (not your article of this discussion Champeroo– it was quite well done). Its not like she’s the only educated and well-positioned person who has said things like this… she’s just the latest. The difference between her and the others is that she is just refusing to coddle the public consciousness by attempting to cover up or dilute her feelings.
The people who are so outraged she even has the audacity to say such things forget two important facts:
1. The beginning of the Civil Rights movement is only a generation away. There are plenty of people on both sides who were contemporaries of that movement that are still alive and remember what is was like before. And they had children and taught them whatever it was they believed.
2. As successful as many Black people are, including El Presidente, there are still certain elite circles we can NEVER have a snowball’s chance in Hell of entering. And its in those circles, de facto, smoke screened racism still exists. They think these things, and they discuss these feelings amongst themselves, but they’ll never actually say them in public. That would get them labeled “crazy rednecks.” Stephanie Grace is, very likely, a leak they forgot to plug.
In an odd way, I’m thankful she’s unapologetic. At least if I ever run into her or her ilk, I know exactly who I am dealing with. I will have my bone in nose and my loincloth ready for her.
“I’m thankful she’s unapologetic”
girl. this trick apologized. tryin to keep that clerkship, honey.
Yea, she apologize but what did she apologize for?
@Peyso,
Ask her.
i think that one should at least entertain that there is a possibility that black peole are genetically inferior (for whatever reason). Wehther it be years of opression, subjugation or what have you… in my mind it’s a possiblity. I have noticed that most people responding are taking this idea as a personal affront to themselves… which i think is wrong.
Most respondants are college educated and generally will be smarter than the rest. As an african where most of the population is black, and most issues of inequality can be removed from this argument, i still think that there is a certain factor that may be missing from us genetically. Perhaps it’s that ther whole education system and way of examination is inherently biased against the AA reasoning methodology. Thus this may be why we always seem to have to put in more work for similar results?
Am fixing to head to an exam right now so i cant go into in in depth but, if we can be genetically predisposed to be athletic (a quick analysis of any sport that AA actively participate in will tell you..) why cant we predisposed to other issues, health, enduarance, and yes intelligence?
educational opportunity or achievement is not the same thing as intelligence or a genetic predisposition toward intelligence. intelligence has to do with mental capacity. i don’t take her words personally, i just don’t think that white people really believe that african americans are less intelligent or are less likely to be. statistically speaking, are we less likely to be formally educated? sure. but some of the most intelligent people i have ever met were uneducated midde to older aged black people.
“i still think that there is a certain factor that may be missing from us genetically. ”
i’m sorry, i just had to come back to this comment. don’t buy into that, honey. but the fact that you really believe that you may be missing something is exactly the reason why some people take this email personally. for generations, white culture has worked to convince everyone else that they are at the pinnacle and there is something wrong with everyone else. we have bought into not even knowing that we buy into it. but it’s not true. the emperor ain’t got no clothes on. lol
Your comment was sad and reeks of self-loathing and self-hate. I don’t know what would give you any indication that you are missing ANYTHING in comparison to any other person, moreover, any other race. The fact that you even typed this is the type of justification some people look for to exploit their racist agendas.
It’s racist because she has no basis for her claim. Can you understand that? It’s like going out and declaring to everyone that the sun is actually freezing cold…it makes NO sense.
Their ‘system’ is biased. Systematically it was designed to oppress and destroy us–mentally, physically, spiritually, economically, and socially.
Our ‘athleticism’ is inherently related to the athletic activities we participate in which is CULTURALLY BASED, not based on genetics. The color of your eyes is based on genetics. The color of your hair is based on genetics; not even solely yours, but rather the genes of family and ancestors. It’s not accurate to say we (Black people) are predisposed to be athletic. How many Black people dominate (past or present) archery? How many Black people dominate sumo wrestling? OK.
Health & Endurance are based on many variables.
Don’t fall for the propaganda.
Bond. BlkBond.
Like I said on another blog…white supremacy at its finest. Im getting bored with it all….her claims are not based in truth or science. That bish is straight crazy. Yes, i said it.
That is all.
i think this broad is dumb.
what i find most interesting though is how exactly she measures/defines “intelligence” – if she’s going by SAT scores or some other such nonsense measure, then she gets the side-eye. there are multiple types of intelligence, and although i’m pretty sure home slice is lacking in pretty much all of them, that’s an important thing to take into consideration when discussing this topic.
I remember learning in an undergrad biology class that there is more genetic variation within a given race than there is between that race and another, so most of the differences between races are due to culture and environment. This has been backed up by extensive research.
Also, “IQ” tests are not a valid indicator of true intelligence, especially when it comes to black people. I’d get into that more but I think you VSB’s and VSS’s know, or can guess, why.
So basically, F her, that stupid caveb*tch
I do not for one second think that Blacks are genetically predisposed to be less intelligent, BUT I do think we’ve been conditioned to accept mediocrity. or that even without hardwork and/or talent you can somehow become famous if the right person discovers you (ie current singers,rappers, reality stars, etc).
Ballocks. Ballocks is the word I will use to describe Stephie’s e-mail and any other notion of genetically based racial superiority any one group. This foolish topic isn’t worth more than 50 words.
I could write a long in depth essay about how I feel about this, but I just woke up and I have a very busy studying day ahead of me. I’ll substitute the essay by randomly throwing out some facts/thoughts/links.
1)I believe that a lot of white people feel this way.
2)If this were her personal thoughts, they would have been politically incorrect thoughts, however the fact that she focused on white/black and emailed this to the whole damn world allows me to believe that she had alterer races motives.
3)African immigrants have the highest lvl of educational attainment in the US.
http://bluecafe669.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx
4)All black people are NOT genetically the same. Africa is the most genetically diverse continent in the entire world. Human beings are less genetically diverse than fruit flies. There is more genetic diversity inside of races then between them. When she says black people, what kind is she talking about?
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm
5)White people often use academics to advocate racism. Coming out of HS I seriously did not know that Africa had any civilizations. The history textbooks that they give students pretty much says, Africans were naked tree swingin savages. Do you know how mad I was when I found out about the Songhai Empire, Mansa Musa, Sankore University, Timbuktu? These West Africans studied medicine, algebra, astronomy. They had toothpaste while some white societies were still caves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYMkTxNQGGU&playnext_from=TL&videos=X4dwp9GhOTM
6)Black people under perform in this country for several reasons. Inequalities in schooling is a huge problem and a lot of us just come from households/cultures that put an emphasis on studying.
7)Never forget that racism has nothing to do about hatred. It has everything to do with power. Arguments like this have been used for decades to create power structures and hamper us from any economic or social success in this country.
8)All traditionally oppressed minorities(w/ the exception of Jews) do worse academically in societies all across the world. This occurs regardless if the traditionally oppressed group is separated to the majority group through race, religion, etc.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm
9)Why is Africa poor? Check the definitions of neocolonialsm, IMF/World Bank, multinational corporations.
http://science.jrank.org/pages/7920/Neocolonialism.html
It’s also important to dig in to the relationship the CIA has had w/ 3rd world countries using credible sources.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olVADbv7Wts&playnext_from=TL&videos=k5cu7iHM5QA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sstDwKTCpM&playnext_from=TL&videos=DK5XskCQ09w
Oh yeah I forgot…
10)I believe another reason white ppl feel they are superior is because they came after us. They think they are more “evolved.” To me this argument is foolish. According to that logic one would assume a chihuahua is superior to a wolf.
11)I thankfully that I have meet several intelligent black people to look up to. I fear that most white people only have ninjas like Wacko Flocka Flame as their minds default black person. That’s a sad prototype to have of our race.
I agree with your number 5. I graduated from what a private predominately white high school, ranked # 2 in the city of Los Angeles. The school and teachers were always being recognized for their coursework, publications, and test scores. I was an AP History student. We always dove deep into the cultures, civilizations, and history of Europe, America, Asia, and even South America. RARELY was Africa cover. The only references to Africa was the occupation by European powers and the slave trade. Teachers loved to talk about Egypt as if that is all of Africa. Rarely did we learn about ANY other parts of Africa other than The Gold Coast and West Africa with reference to the slave trade. The school system is doing students a disservice by completely disregarding the history of Africa.
I don’t know, maybe I tend not to get my feathers ruffled to much, but this girl wrote an email to a few of her friends after dinner and some broad decides to email it out months later after a fight with her. I can’t really put to much stock in it and I don’t expect her to have facts and figures to back up what she said. I don’t when I email my friends. The girl expressed an opinion (although it doesn’t seem like she has a strong opinion either way) but that’s all it is. Should she be more careful…yes. This can be said about her email content as well as her choice in friends. I don’t know what is nature vs. nurture and neither does she. She’s in law school not a geneticist.
This is a bunch of BS. I know this topic has been covered before, about the inherent inferiority of black intelligence. This was discussed in the book the Bell Curve and someone else, can’t remember who though. I know that there was a study that showed that students were more likely to follow in line with there expectations. So students eithere rise to high expectations or fall to the low expectations placed on them. People believe that black people are inferior so it becomes a self-fufilling prophecy. Hence, discussions like this that get out will just further put in peoples mind the inferiority of blacks. White teachers won’t have that high expectations for black students and which black students will pick up on and hence perform at not a great level. This may reinforce what some black people feel subconsciously about themselves. I know that throughout all of my schooling, not all but some white teachers didn’t have the same expectations for me and I could definetely sense that. While I still will perform well ( siince I refuese to pigeonhold myself and due to the expectations placed on me frome my parents) this has devastating effects. I just remember being in a photography class in high school and the teacher said it call for 3 parts water and 1 part solution. I remember I didn’t here exactly what he said so I asked him to repeat it and then he said it slower and tried to “break it down” like I was an idiot or something. I was so furious with this man, I’m thinking I’m probably better at math than you are and I can definetely understand 1 part water, 3 parts solution.
Also, what about all the Africans that come over here and kick ass in school.
And another thing, what exactly is this chick using for the basis of intelligence? Is it just academic achievement. There are plenty of blacks due to many social ills that don’t achieve on the same level as they could. Shoot I know plenty of people in my family that are intelligent they just have other issues that are hindering them. Would this chick consider someone akin to Frank Lucas and others like him as unintelligent because they don’t display traditional signs of intelligence. While I wholeheartedly disagree with the lifestyle, it does take a lot of smarts to organize, keep track of employees, money and product, all while staying under the law. West African griots are basically a walking encyclopedia of history, how much cognitive ability does it take to retain all of that information. Basically, there are so many ways that intelligence can be measured that you can’t really just use one marker that is very skewed and has put people at a disadvantage and use it to brand a whole group of people as inferior. Since blacks have gotten the short end of the stick and there are still so many of us that are successful that just shows how great we are.
Anyway, she is basically a racist probably using the black people that she has run into as evidence to support her racists claims without taking into consideration other factors and exactly how to measure intelligence.
I remember a certain POTUS who when discussing a certain people stated that those people “clung to their guns & religion”. Now he assumed he could make this remark b/c he was in the comfort of his people. Why? Because that’s what we ALL do. Black people talk about 2520s, 2520s talk about black people, mexicans, & especially those in the middle eastern region onf the world. My 2520 VP of my company loves nothing more than to talk about his fellow “Appalachian” 2520s just as much as we love to talk about them damn ninjas. And yes that is his word not mind…well I borrow it from time to time.
I don’t fault her but speaking her mind but I do wish that cavebytch didn’t apologize.
There are a lot of things that could be said about this email. However, I think there are a few things that are at the root of this discussion. Primarily, how should we define intellect? is it merely the propensity to retain pertinent information? Or to grasp concepts quickly? The way we measure intelligence (SAT and other standardized test) are ethnically biased because they ask questions on topics that White kids are far more likely to have been previously exposed to than Black kids.
I do believe that intelligent people pass on to their children some of their intellectual gifts such as the ability to retain a large amount of information or to quickly understand concepts. However, i don’t think it is as simple as saying I am smart so my children are smart. A person’s intelligence may begin with some genetic trait(Nature) however I believe teachers, resources, support, etc (Nurture) has far more impact on one’s intelligence. And it is a simple fact that White Americans (those outside of Appalachia) have more/better access to those teachers, resources, and support. So for Stephanie to believe that Whites are more intelligent than Blacks makes sense to me. BUT to believe that the difference in intelligence is due to the genetic make-up of African-American’s is idiotic. If you compare students of any race with similar up-bringings, academic exposure, etc (Nurture) I think you would find on average that their intelligence or IQ is about the same.
I think its safe to assume that she meant “genetically predisposed to be more intelligent” rather than “more intelligent”. How else would she explain some of these slow white folks walking around?
I do agree with you on the idea that we have to question how we define intellect. Intellect and intelligence are man made concepts. What it means to be intelligent now is much different than what it meant to be decades ago? Our concept of intelligence has been shaped by how we interact with the world around us. The 2520 has (for the most part) shaped the world that we live in. I would not be suprised if they created a concept of intelligence that genetically suited them.
You’re so super smart Champ. I totally agree!!! Honestly, it’s a legitimate opinion and not offensively stated. The only bad thing about this whole situation is that people would try to ruin someone’s reputation this way.
I think before we go in on this girl lets discuss the context around this email was produced. She had a dinner w/ 3 of her friends, she originally alluded to the idea that it was IMPOSSIBLE that black people were inferior. Stephanie Grace did some crazy study about race while at Princeton, so she knows at least a bit about it. After the dinner, she emailed her friends and rescinded some of what she said at dinner saying that it was not “impossible” not that it was probable or true. Her and her friends get into an argument 6 months later and then this email pops up.
Secondly, though social science has “proved” that there are very little genetic difference between races, social science once “proved” that there was a huge genetic difference. Furthermore, very little still leaves room for a difference. Hard science/genetics has yet to make a substantive claim on the genetic differences between races.
So was her idea true? Yes. She is not closed off to the possibility which also implictly means that she is not closed off to the converse. The converse of any situation has to be considered, at least scientifically speaking. The converse is black folk are genetically superior. No she didnt state it this way but she also didnt say “black folk were born dumb” and thats what we are taking it to be.
I really dont see the reason for the uproar. She didnt make a claim in any direction. Just prove her wrong. That’s all.
I think the problem is that it wasn’t an email that was sent to just her friends from law school, it was sent to people she didn’t even know that well. Maybe the facts are still a little unclear, but from a student at Harvard law that I know personally, that is not what happened. Either way, you are told over and over again, be careful what you write, it may come back later. As a law student, I’m positive she knows that considering that is one of the main reasons lawyers spend so much time editing etc. Again, this research was not really alluded to in great detail in the full email. It was not that she made the assertions, its how she went about saying it. No. she doesn’t have to “care” if she doesn’t want to, but if it wasn’t a big deal, why would she write an apology letter? Obviously she felt it was not well thought out and now she is just suffering the consequences. LIfe sucks sometimes.
She only sent them to her friends, OVER 6 MONTHS AGO. Then her and her ex friend got into an argument and that ex friend decided to forward this out to everyone
Like I said before… I’m not sure the details are as clear as you think. The entire story seems a bit far-fetched, someone remembered an email from 6 months before and was like I’ll show her? If the other person was a classmate, I doubt it seriously, unless they were troubled from the beginning with the email. Even if taken your facts as true, the conversation must have been one where others did not agree with her views and she wanted to get her point across one more time. And as for another comment you made earlier, Federal Clerkships are not internships and are one of the most prestigious positions a post grad can receive, they many times write the opinions you read for cases. To have a clerkship opens many other opportunities and is not something that should be taken lightly. I saw something about freedom of speech and like someone replied before, it only applies to government action unless someone has taken the position in which they act as the government, neither which is the case here, so that doesn’t apply. If you say something crazy, it might show up again, many employers check twitter, facebook, etc. obviously it is to check and make sure the people they hire aren’t doing and saying ridiculous things because it is important how you portray yourself to others. So, even if she did get in a fight, she should know better than to send such a “well-thought” email to a “group of friends” because it could show up again and it did.
Stephanie Grace did some crazy study about race while at Princeton, so she knows at least a bit about it.
What study do you keep referring to? The only reference I see is the reference to the Harvard Law Professor’s work on violence.
I also don’t think that there are no cultural differences or that cultural differences are not likely the most important sources of disparate test scores (statistically, the measurable ones like income do account for some raw differences). I would just like some scientific data to disprove the genetic position, and it is often hard given difficult to quantify cultural aspects.
-Stephanie Grant
She is asserting that genetic differences account for the disparities in intelligence scores. She is dismissing cultural differences out of hand.
Hard science/genetics has yet to make a substantive claim on the genetic differences between races.
Incorrect my friend. Hard science has found that there is less genetic variation between races then genetic variation within races. Roughly 85% of genetic difference between two individuals occurs within any socially identified racial group, and roughly 9% occurs between two different populations within a socially identified racial group, and only the remaining 6 – 7% occurs between socially identified races.
I don’t think that approximately 7% of genetic variability can account for the disparities in intelligence scores.
One such design by social science to tease out the heritability and effects of environment surrounding intelligence is to study white families that have adopted black children. 6 out of 7 studies supported an environmental interpretation of group differences, while the remaining lone study did not favor genetic heritability more then it favored an environmental interpretation. The IQ of the adopted crumb snatchers were closer to the IQ of the adopted mothers rather then the biological mothers.
She is wrong to dismiss cultural differences and environmental effects out of hand.
This is @Peyso further down the line…my comments keep ending up all over the place for some reason.
Scratch that. I really need to stop messin’ with y’all today and finish my psychopathology final. *sigh*
Y’all wanna have an interesting conversation and sh*t when I’m backlogged with work.
If we use the logic that everyone (including myself) has used today, since culture, or its effect, CANNOT BE EFFECTIVELY measured, we cant consider it a factor.
Secondly, when we have conversations w/ our friends do we quote doctors and studies or do we just talk from our BS imperical evidence?
Lastly, in a weird way, all of what you said could prove my point. Is it possible that she said what she said because she doesnt know what you know and thus she’s open to the concept b/c she doesnt know what you know?
*sighs*
I read her entire article. 4 times. I’m not sure where to begin.
This suggests to me that some part of intelligence is genetic, just like identical twins raised apart tend to have very similar IQs
I’m not arguing as to whether that statement is true or not. It is true that the brain is a muscle. And in the statement given above, if one of the twins isn’t using that muscle…is it safe to say that their IQ would be lower than their siblings? If African Americans students aren’t receiving the same education and aren’t be challenged in the same way as their 2520 counterparts….I believe it’s safe to say that it’s not genetics, but a slew of different issues such as socioeconomic status and demographics.
In the slavery era, however, the stereotype was of a docile, childlike, African American, and they were, in fact, responsible for very little violence (which was why the handful of rebellions seriously shook white people up).
This statement stuck out to me the most. She speaks of slavery as if it were just another event in the history of America. (SB: I know ya’ll may have heard of that special on the history channel, America: The story or us. My friend and I saw a commercial for it, and I promptly wondered aloud if slavery was to be included in this lovely story) In her own arrogance, I’m sure it never crossed her mind that this display of “docile and childlike” behavior was perhaps a coping mechanism so one didn’t find themselves hanging from the latest oak tree. The rebellions shook 2520′s up because they clearly did not think that “negras” were not intelligent enough to organize such an event. Furthermore, they assumed that their slaves were happy and in love with the life massa gave them.
“In the slavery era, however, the stereotype was of a docile, childlike, African American, and they were, in fact, responsible for very little violence (which was why the handful of rebellions seriously shook white people up).”
But didnt she say this to say that black ppl are NOT genetically predisposed to violence or did i read it wrong?
@ Peyso
Yup…she did. However, I was confused and slightly offended by the implied context of this “non violent” nature. “child like” nature? Usually children “don’t know any better”, so when they do things we chalk it up to their ignorance or lack of experience so to speak. I took it as she was suggesting that slaves in general weren’t intelligent enough to know that they were in an effed up situation. Furthermore, when you use “child like” to refer to an adult or race of people…ehhhh…it just doesn’t sound right on some many levels.
I see what you’re saying but I cant really agree. Child like could be from the dependecy that slavery caused.
That’s cool. Wasn’t looking for anyone to co-sign. Merely my interpretation of it.
I can dig the dependency route too…but for me it still doesn’t take away from the insult of it.
@LaBakir
“She speaks of slavery as if it were just another event in the history of America. (SB: I know ya’ll may have heard of that special on the history channel, America: The story or us. My friend and I saw a commercial for it, and I promptly wondered aloud if slavery was to be included in this lovely story) ”
2520s and unfortunately some Black folks buy this nonsense. If you think America or Western Europe is in the position it’s in solely off hardwork, ingenuity, and intelligence you are greatly mistaken. I wonder if that History Channel documentary will gloss over the base of the economy of this country its first 300-400 years.
My sentiments exactly! I saw a brief clip of it…praising the exploration of somebody *rolls eyes*. I would love for someone to get down to the nitty gritty of this country’s history in a special of that sort.
@LaBakir
” I would love for someone to get down to the nitty gritty of this country’s history in a special of that sort.”
Howard Zinn’s book “A People’s History of the United States” does this. I still haven’t finished this book. It’s a good book.
@Humble_One
Thanks for the recommendation.
Another good book about race relations (as opposed to slavery) in the US is The Blood Done Sign My Name by Timothy Tyson. I’m still reading it myself…but so far so good.
I hate the term “sub-saharan africa”. It’s a term rooted in an attempt to separate black people from Egypt. A desert doesn’t separate people. Tell me another instance where you use the term sub-”dessert”.
The extra s in dessert is for sugar.
The “sub” comes from being located south of a desert on a map. The only sub-desert that I know of is sub-victorian in Australia.
I’m glad that this email came out. Granted I’m mad late (was on vacation last week and eschewed all types of electronic forms of entertainment; actually engaged in the real world), but when I read her email I simply shrugged. As stated numerous times upthread many 2520s feel like this/subscribe to this point of view (and others like it) but hide it to be politically correct. Which means that they smile in our faces and talk about us like dirty dogs amongst their comrades.
Like I said to panama on twitter a few weeks ago, I’d rather know my enemy and what they really think/feel because that allows me to constantly stay on guard and determine the appropriate response to their tomfoolery.
If you are racist own up to it, and quit trying to parade around town like you aren’t. This chick, obviously is still in denial about her racism I bet you any amount of money she is seriously confused about all of the hubbub about her email, and is kind of miffed that she had to apologize for something that wasn’t that bad (according to her).
Racism is still alive and well, its just underground. Hopefully this email might serve as a wake up call to some of us who think that racism is dead simply because it has been veiled in light of political correctness.
I don’t have much to say on the truthiness (ha!) of this girl’s statements. But what I do want to rant about is the racism in law schools. I know there’s at least one other law student on here, and maybe that individual’s experience is different, but I can say my classmates are disgustingly racist. I’ll be graduating law school here in about a week, and in the past 3 years, I’ve heard and heard of, all kinds of disgusting things said by white students. I don’t know if it’s because I’m in the south or what, but these kids not only believe that it is possible that we’re not as intelligent, but they truly believe it in some cases. They think that we’re all affirmative action cases who had sub-standard scores, but were admitted because of our minority status. They think we’re not as smart as them, they think we don’t try to be smart, they think BLSA is some kind of cult and don’t realize it’s a support system, and they say all kinds of racist ish on a regular basis in general. They don’t even try to hide it sometimes. It’s a big problem and part of the problem is that the whole system (meaning the nature of law school, etc) is built for the rich and privileged in every way.
It blew my mind when I first got here, because these people are supposed to be educated. These aren’t your typical college students. We all graduated college with honors, we all took college seriously. But I have truly seen that some of the most educated people can be some of the most misinformed. Also, let me rant about the idiocy of ivy-league law schools. I’ve had more than 1 professor express their frustration with the ivy-league law students they’ve worked with, and their inability to handle simple tasks. I even worked on a project with some Harvard law students through my clinical work, and they spent weeks researching something, couldn’t find what they were looking for, asked us for help, and one of my classmates found it in 20 minutes. I kid you not. But I digress. Just wanted to get out my jealus/bitter rant at the law school ranking system.
Point is, law school is a breeding ground, partly due to the adversarial nature of the practice, for thoughts like this. Whether or not they are correct, they are definitely insulting and presumptuous. It’s been highly frustrating.
Newsflash: Harvard people are human. They also have the capabilities of being dumb and/or assholes. Ya’ll think way too highly of them lol.
@Liz
“Harvard people are human. They also have the capabilities of being dumb and/or assholes. Ya’ll think way too highly of them lol.”
LOL. Cosign. But I think are society gives too many people passes because of their school, status, or title. After working with corporate people for roughly 10 years I think I can honestly say that Ivy leagues schools, CEOs, COOs, CFOs, high GPA’s, does not equate to brilliance all the time.
yeahh. I know and know of many of them personally. they’re pretty normal folks. this email doesn’t surprise me.
@ Liz,
Exactly! David Duke was an educated, well-spoken white man… who happened to once be the head of the KKK.
At the risk of offending someone I will make my statement: Please, please, please stop holding folks – black or white – who go to the Ivys as some shinning example of what intelligent humanity has to offer. Some of the most dumb, entitled, socially inept, social detached, ethically f$cked up, prejudice, elitist, and damaging human beings in the history of the industrialized world got edu-ma-cated at these schools. Many of them are diva dudes and dudettes (to point back at an earlier post by the champ). Not everyone, of course, but some of the above folks I have dated, befriended and worked with. This young lady falls right in line. Sure an Ivy education is invaluable but lets stop acting like every person who is accepted at and graduates from one is a catalyst for relevant, coherent, and intelligent thought and leadership.
We would never have heard of this dim-wit if she was the candidate for an online degree….and my saying so is an insult to the good folks working on online degrees.
I think too much shock and awe is going into the fact that this chick goes to Harvard.
She used a couple of scientific catch phrases and big words to basically say blacks are inferior, stupid, etc.
She’s no better than Dog the Bounty Hunter, Mark Fuhrman, or George Wallace.
It was wrong, racist, and definitely politcally incorrect.
Few things: 1) She’s entitled to her opinion. 2) I’m not shocked or surprised about her opinion. 3) She’s not the 1st intelligent or educated, white person who feels this way. See: Darwin. 4) Blasting her in a curse-word infused email or blog post, or calling the Jesse Sharpton posse still won’t undo the travesty that was the Cleveland Cavaliers’ play last night. Get it together Lebron! We gotta get this championship and conquer the evil that is Kobe!
She used a couple of scientific catch phrases and big words to basically say blacks are inferior, stupid, etc.
Word.Life… I don’t even know why the fact that she goes to “Harvard” matters… She could have gone to OSU for all it matters…
Okay, I’m back. This is not surprising to me. For a guy that went to a racially diverse high school who had a very idealistic and optimistic view of the world, life has really kicked my butt enough for me to realize that no matter what do, no matter how many degrees I get, how much money I make, in someone’s eyes, I will still be a n*****. Plain and simple. If you let that be the thing that holds you back in life, you should be embarrassed. Grace is allowed to her opinion, no matter how stupid it is. If black people in this country were truly intellectually inferior, there would be a lot of dead 2520s in this country because black people wouldn’t have been smart enough to create techniques for open heart surgery, pacemaker controllers and harness plasma in blood for blood transfusions. I usually brush opinions like this off my shoulders because I know what black have accomplished in this country and can accomplish in the future. The odds have been against us since we set foot on these shores and nothing has changed. Regardless, my people been resilient, intelligent and pretty much kicked major @$$ despite those odds. Stuff like that keeps me confident as a black man, on top of the personal odds that my family and I have fought through to be where we are now. It is something that I will pass on to my sister’s kids and to my future children.
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not always as intelligent as I like to believe that I am. I ask that you bear that in mind as I state the following:
Putting aside any emotional reaction to what she has stated and evaluating her dialogue on the merit of her printed words, I understand from her text that she is not saying that we as African-Americans are intellectually inferior, she’s just not willing to rule it out as a genetic possibility, she is not 100% certain that we are not intellectually inferior, but she would like to see some sort of scientific data to back a position one way or the other.
I see nothing wrong with this. We all have doubts about things that we would like to see more proof about. Some of these things are not very popular opinions as is the case she makes. Before accepting myself to be a pragmatic agnostic, I dared to question the existence of God, but because it was not a popular position, I chose to censor my words around Christians. That doesn’t mean that my argument is weak or wrong, it just means I’d like some proof one way or the other. Unfortunately, people get emotional when you try to have a rational discussion about it.
Genetics, and therefore people, evolve. This is not limited to race. To say that ALL African-Americans are intellectually inferior to ALL whites would be false, but I do believe that SOME African-Americans are genetically predisposed to be intellectually inferior to SOME African-Americans and yes to SOME whites, too …just as SOME whites are genetically predisposed to be intellectually inferior to SOME whites as well as SOME African-Americans.
We all had someone in our class at some point who was just dumb for no damned reason. When you saw the parents, you thought “it’s no wonder, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree.” You knew that person’s future was jail or retail and race was not the deciding factor- simply because others who looked like him were excelling in the same class.
So, yes, in a way, she is right to think that genetics are likely a factor for some AA’s to be intellectually inferior, but if her argument is all, then yes, she is mis-guided, but fully entitled to state an opinion of enquiry. If we won’t discuss it openly, regardless of how controversial it may be, we won’t learn when we’re wrong.
I think her comments were uninformed, showed poor judgment, and were offensive. I don’t think they were racist, just an expression of an opinion that will certainly lead people to believe that one is racist.
I am a little hesitant though about dragging her out into public about this. Sure she said some dumb shit in her emails, that goes without saying, but like the Champ said, everyone says dumb shit in emails. The site Above-The-Law is read by a huge portion of Lawyers, Judges and Law Students. Being mentioned on Above-the-Law is generally not considered a good thing.
If anything, the only really annoying part of the controversy is that they tried to rope in Harvard’s Black Law Student Association as responsible for disseminating the information. Granted, some black law students at Harvard did mention this to some of their friends, it was hardly a ‘plot’ on the part of black law students to take her down.
I dunno, I’m just skeptical of giving the girl so much attention for saying something that so many people think, but refuse to address head on. Maybe black people are disposed to being less intelligent, but if you truly want to acknowledge that can you live with the next step of your reasoning? Would segregation actually be justified then? It’s an interesting conversation to have, and I don’t think the view being controversial should prevent her from expressing it in an email to her close friends, or even on a school listserv.
This totally should have stayed within Harvard, and not become national news. Maybe America has a hard-on for race issues and Harvard?
Hmmm …As an African woman who lived through apartheid and still lives in the neo-apartheid state of South Africa I’ve heard this type of argument all too regularly to justify racism and prejudice. I find her argumentation very provincial. The true question would then be if the African Americans are less intelligent who is most intelligent?? Who are African-Americans less intelligent than?? And where do all the other races/mixes of heritage fall into? How does she measure intelligence? Because you would need a ranking of intelligence as a whole to prove that a group are less intelligent than other racial/social/cultural groups.
I personally can’t take immediate offense since I am not African-American but I am a black African. I am choosing to discern between the definitions because non-western science/intelligence is not documented in the same way as western science/intelligence. Most knowledgeable human beings know that the east Asians for instance have been the forerunners in medical science for centuries. Africans were performing brain surgery before it was defined as such. What has now been described as participatory and democratic governance existed in African communities long before it was given that name. So if I take the African part of the African-American, she is historically and factually incorrect!
Then there are various types of intelligence. Intelligence which is purely information based. Intelligence which is experience based. Artificial intelligence. What is she talking about? How does Grace define intelligence???
So I won’t pay any mind to such senseless ramblings unless the argument is well thought through and proven. All she is doing really is speculating a possible theory with little to no comparative or factual evidence. Until such time counter-productive people such as herself must just be ignored.
So I won’t pay any mind to such senseless ramblings unless the argument is well thought through and proven. All she is doing really is speculating a possible theory with little to no comparative or factual evidence. Until such time counter-productive people such as herself must just be ignored.
And my opinion on the matter has just been summarized. This is a classic case of Next!
First off, I don’t find anything in her email to be mean spirited. Although, I can imagine that it feeds into the ideals of those who are (or might be) mean spirited. As Americans (black or white or whatever), we tend to be very sensitive about any racial topic. Scientist of all backgrounds all over the world study ethnicity in the hopes of bringing forward some new understanding or new advancement in science or medicine. One new theory suggests that east Africans can metabolize lactic acid. Meaning, while they run, they are actually making food for their muscles while others just cramp up (sound like b.s.-scene a marathon lately?). But outside of the science vs. racial sensitivity, there is another reason this topic is complete sensationalism:
INTELLIGENCE CANNOT BE UNIVERSALLY DEFINED
Therefore, every discussion about intelligence, or intellectual aptitude or intelligence quotients are all futile efforts to compare apples to oranges. Howard Gardner recognizes nine types of intelligence (http://skyview.vansd.org/lschmidt/Projects/The%20Nine%20Types%20of%20Intelligence.htm). I’m sure there are more. Whenever I hear people talk about intelligence, it always seem like they are expressing an insecurity about an intelligence they DON’T have. Some of the world’s best chess players can’t play on a clock. In other words, won’t be caught dead in Bryant Park. Money Mayweather and his extended family are not exactly articulate, but can’t be outsmart in the ring or in the gym.
So while I, like the Champ, am open to a discussion, I am not open to the idea the intelligence has an universal definition with which we can all be judged, like height or weight. The entire discussion must be balanced with an understanding that being smart can mean different things.
I am not offended by her email. It is her opinion. Humans are human. I went to PWI for college and before high school. I can tell you that human are humans. I’ve met Asians, Indians, 2520s, etc that were average students or weren’t sharp in some subjects. What i think is sad is that you have people that still have this mindset. Luckily this mindset is slowly eroding. If it wasn’t we wouldn’t have the president we have. That being said this mentality dies hard. I’m willing to bet that Ms. Grace hasn’t had that much contact with various Black people.
To think that “I think my babies will be geniuses and beautiful individuals whether I raise them or give them to an orphanage in Nigeria.” is nuts. She is totally discounting the socioenomic dynamics of the world. You can be a super genius but if you aren’t in a place to nurture that genius there is a good chance you will slip through the cracks. 2520s really don’t seem to understand how they have the luxury and opportunities available to them while still being mediocre or dumb. I’ve seen so many 2520s in positions of power not because of their brilliance or qualifications but because they know the right people, or grew up around the right people.
A lot of the VSBs and VSSs may blow her comment off. It isn’t so easy to do when you have to work with a “Stephanie Grace”. Maybe because I’m an engineer I have run into this more often than others. I have received the “who is this porch monkey and what makes him think he knows something” look from white and blue collar 2520s. Too many times I have had to sit in meetings and correct 2520s proudly spewing wrong info, or dealing with vendors that assume that I don’t know what I’m talking about and then later state that “I only want to deal with Humble”. Mofos running to the Asian or Indian and then the Asian or Indian sending them back to me. It gets old and I don’t think I will ever be able to just say “oh well”.
I’m willing to bet that Ms. Grace hasn’t had that much contact with various Black people.
She is totally discounting the socioenomic dynamics of the world. You can be a super genius but if you aren’t in a place to nurture that genius there is a good chance you will slip through the cracks.
I’ve seen so many 2520s in positions of power not because of their brilliance or qualifications but because they know the right people, or grew up around the right people.
Round of applause Humble One. I’ve been saying this for years and they will NEVER get it. And I work with Whites as well. There is only 3 of us here. I happen to be the internet mgr and constantly have to correct them as there is a level of “i have to know more than her”. I never turn the other cheek…and make it my mission to work twice, 3 times as hard to change their preset minds. It’s tiring but I will never get tired of it…and teaching my daughter all the same. I wouldn’t be where I’m at and I had to work twice as hard(keeping in mind I’m from the same schools they are from)…
@SmartFoxGirl
“I happen to be the internet mgr and constantly have to correct them as there is a level of “i have to know more than her”.”
Word. I’ve experienced the same thing. Or they play you like you don’t know what you are talking about. You are the internet manager? So you can see who has been looking at pron and mediatakeout all day?
Lol, no that’s the IT dept. I wish, then I would have all the power.
Yes, her e-mail was racist. Check out dictionary.com. There are a lot of theories about racism being based on power and that multicultural folk can’t be racist because of this lack of power. Fine… if we can’t be racist then everyone is prejudiced to a certain extent.
Reading through the comments on here made me think of the following questions. Is she cool enough with any black people that would actually go talk to her about this? Everyone is up in arms, wants to start the next March on Washington, but did anyone actually try to talk to her? Yes, we might want to dropkick her in the shin because many of us have worked our a…. off to attain this so called intellect. I am really interested in hearing her reasoning. Forget the pc retraction.
Why are we so defensive as a people? That’s probably like asking why is the sky blue. We have rebuttals to such blatantly unfounded statements which include: what about the ancient Egyptians, using the sample of Africans in the US smarter than whites and Asians (which is a statistical manipulation), the genetic variance within races etc. While i said i wanted to hear her reasoning, it probably is not based on anything objective. So trying to have an intellectual convo probably won’t work anyway. People aren’t unjustified with being upset, yet where does that get you. Keep doing the best you can at what you’re doing, and try to interact with folks so that this crap doesn’t get passed on through generations.
I think race is a social construct. That’s still intellectual bs though because we attach meaning to it. The darkest , caramelest, and lightest folks from east tribibble, new york, and the iowa planes are somehow all connected by this tenuous ancestry that no one can put a finger on. On the flipside, race was created so people could get away with pillaging and controlling resources. It still exists on the power side because it’s useful.
Last point, what the he!! is intelligence? Reading really fast and memorizing stuff. Coming up with theorems. Ducking when you hear gunshots. Some people are better at the book learnin’ and some aren’t. Sadly, if you aren’t the best at the former a lot of the times the odds are against you.
Huh? *scratches head*… Color me confused.
What’s confusing?
@Liz “Newsflash: Harvard people are human. They also have the capabilities of being dumb and/or assholes.”
I agree. Not sure what the hooplah is about exactly. As if we should be shocked that there exists racism and ignorance behind the walls of academia as well as the trailers and gated communities. She is not the first ‘scholar’ to broach such a subject matter and make insideous assertions, and I’m sure she will not be the last. Furthermore, she is merely a voice to her innumerous accomplished, but silent counterparts that share these same viewpoints
I think she raises an interesting question, but unlike physical prowess, how does one quantify and qualify ‘intelligence’ and even the predisposition of ‘intelligence’ within various groups of people?
There are a myriad of external factors that would need to be excluded from such an analysis in order to draw anything remotely resembling a conclusion.
I have a question:
Is there research being done to determine what group of people have and still are genetically predisposed to being the most oppressive?
I think some scientists are simply too scared to go into this realm of research, and probably for good reason. At the end of the day, this is a nature vs nurture debate being paraded as scientific fact and many forget to remember we have been anti-nurtured for a few hundred years.
The biggest problem is that nobody has decided how to truly measure intelligence.
We have tests created to measure certain types of intelligence, but not all. We have not explained why some types are more important than others. Finally, if we look at history we see black dominating the world in the distant past with technology, we also know that scientifically, black folks were the ancestors of all humans.
Therefore, it makes no sense to believe that black skin means less intelligence. At least not on a worldwide basis.
I agree, I was going to say…she needs to define “smart” lol
@Big Man
“The biggest problem is that nobody has decided how to truly measure intelligence”
True. This is one of my beefs with American education. Everything is geared toward making the grade and creating corporate workers and not learning and being creative. It seems like intelligence is based on memorizing and spitting information back out. Pretty soon we will have nothing but a bunch of test takers.
Pretty soon we will have nothing but a bunch of test takers.
This is very true, an example of this is the SAT’s. I remember when I took an SAT Prep class in order to get a better score. Does the class increase my intelligence level, nope. They taught me how to use the process of elimination in order to increase my odds of getting a better score if I didn’t know the answer, how to skim an article to look for the things that were relevant to the question, and other tricks. However, this test is supposed to be a measure on how well a person is going to do in college. Nope it can measure how well you know how to take the test.
I’m BLACK, educated and grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood. Living behind enemy lines has taught me: Educated, priviledged White people are racist (not all) and can be just as ignorant as under-priviledged whites..that’s that.
Now in response to this article. She’s a law student and should know she needs facts to support her arguement. I find plenty of doubt in her bs. Where is the research to prove this? Blacks over all have not had an equal playing field with the same level of opportunity to learn. We were kept ignorant for hundreds of years, segregated, and mistreated and now you want to say you’re just genetically smarter? Being that I’m preaching to the choir, I doubt I need to go on.
The question is not whether her comments are racist racism is “the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.” The real question that people are debating is whether racism is acceptable in modern society. The real question is whether the justification for slavery and jim crow laws was not all that wrong. While people are free to engage in intelectual debate, this discussion is the equivalent of trying to prove to a Natzi that Jewish people didn’t cause all of Germany’s problems, it is a rediculous premise and I will not entertain it. A wise man told me don’t argue with fools, Cause people from a distance can’t tell who is who (word to Jay-Z).
And it’s exactly those implications that are scary… that someone who is capable of enacting such laws have such poor reasoning skills/abilities is indeed scary.
SMH, the term educated fools come to mind LLS
Frankly, I think that any black person conceding to the plausibility of her argument at all is tragic. But for conversation sake, I guess, carry on…
SMH
Hmmmm… intriguing. I read her email through prior to reading this article… and I have yet to form a complete opinion. I have to give this some thought.
Very excellent point you brought out: Black people always talk about how we just simply have things in our blood… the ability to sing, dance, cook, play sports, to be well endowed physically… regardless of whether or not these things are true, we have adopted them as truth. But the idea of intelligence being predetermined based on race (shit, or anything else, for that matter) will of course, not be greeted warmly. ESPECIALLY coming from a white girl. (or white whomever, for that matter.) Nobody wants to hear someone tell them “you were born to be dumber than me.”
Hmmmm… interesting indeed. Loved the basketball analogy in the beginning. Thanks for giving me something to think about on my way to work.
I was not surprised when I read her email. She’s is a 2520, ivy-league, self proclaimed genius who formed an opinion based on limited data and inductive reasoning. *SMH* I question her (or anyone else’s) intelligence for inferring such a generalization when clearly there are variables (which would be difficult to control to do an accurate study) that affect the ability to have a definitive conclusion. (e.g. social issues, exposure, spirituality, variant understanding). The question in my mind is “What caused the assumption in the first place?” (abundant self-confidence?)
What was most bothersome is that bootleg apology. She needs more people!
Well…I would definately need to see some hard evidence to believe half of her thesis. I’m sure she has none so like I say about people that, like yall say, NEED MORE PEOPLE, she need to SADDOWN!!! (Saddown=sat…yes sat not sit…yo ignorant a** down) That tis all….
Ohh yea…where’s my welcome & sh*t??? Hmmmm
She doesn’t have any hard evidence because…there isn’t any in existence. It’s just a way to try and justify 2520′s treatment towards any race with color in their skin (not just Blacks).
” Ohh yea…where’s my welcome & sh*t??? Hmmmm
”
Don’t worry, I haven’t gotten mine either lol…they’re slacking..
Great piece Champ! I just starting visiting this website and I really appreciate your perspective on the wide range of topics you write about.
I don’t have time to read what everyone has written, so I hope I’m not repeating what others have said.
Let’s not fall into this brainwashing…race is a social construct and will always be! Racists have tried to prove that race is biological forever! This idea that we are less intelligent biologically is nothing new. Before major advances in science, I’m talking late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries (actually not too long ago when you think about it) they used to measure the brains of Native Americans and Africans (all non-caucasians for that matter) to draw these completely asinine conclusions about our intellectual ability. We are a all homo sapiens (Humans!), there is no difference biologically except for gender. Because race is a social construct we cannot ignore the great disparity in the living standards, educational system and the breakdown of Black families as a physical and psychological form of continued slavery post slavery. This is a major reason why we as people of color aren’t where we could and should be! Guys, I’m not a Black Panther type Black Woman or someone who refuses to look at all angles of someone’s argument or opinion on a particular issue, especially pertaining to race. I just truly believe that this brainwashing has to stop. We cannot continue to allow these completely biased and ignorant opinions of our people and our ability and potential to stifle us in anyway.
Ohh yea…and how do I post my picture…I’m having a hard time figuring that out…SMH
@TheOpinionated1
I had the same issue for a looonng time. : ) Go to http://www.gravatar.com
So, at first I got a little discomforted by this email, but then I realized my President is BLACK. The CEO’s of American Express, Aetna, and Xerox are black. I am black, my family is black, I have friends who are black … and they score as high and if not higher in the same areas as White Americans. What I think does effect a person is their surroundings. Your race does not determine intelligence. Intelligence to one group may be how high they can score on a test, but they couldn’t ride a city bus system if you paid them. Define intelligence Harvard Law student, because intelligence would have told you that this thing called technology can be traced anywhere.
To argue with this woman who got into Harvard on a system designed by one class of people would be a waste of time. Let us allow Asians to build a system to determine intelligence and then asks another race to work in that system, you might not look that intelligent. Let us do the same with Indians, Hispanics, and Blacks. We are excelling in a system made by one class of people. Imagine if we were the class that actually made the system how far we would be? Exactly.
Although I understand this post, it still is amazing how a lot of educated Black folks would take such a thing to heart. It’s one white girl’s opinion (and I feel it MAY have been taken out of context). Why you mad?
Whether you feel like it’s racist or whatever…is THIS what you choose to focus your attention to if you wish to end racism? Sure, she may be a person who hands down judgement based on her beliefs, but best believe, she’s not the target.
This is not condoning her email or what it entails. I’m just sad that so many Black folks are so sensitive about certain shyt considering that sensitivity doesn’t encourage productivity.
I’m sensitive because this isn’t directed at my ethnicity per se…
In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
and…
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Hear, hear my good man.
Apathy is the worst enemy of change.
The reason that this makes me upset is because I, for one, like to think that the majority of the young people in my generation, or a few years before, are smart/progressive enough to know that there is no need to have this kind of conversation. It doesn’t help anything. So, Ms. Grace, you think blacks are less intelligent? What are you doing about it? Petition for better resources in predominately black public schools? Sign up for Teach for America so you can spend a year educating in less privileged areas? Na, all you’re doing is spouting the same nonsense that has been circulating in this country, and in others, for ever.
And if we want to talk about World History, then let me throw my theory out there. I feel like racism is a bunch of bull created to justify the immoral actions Europeans made in the name of money. Centuries ago, Europeans (including those on the Iberian Peninsula. We, self-centured African Americans tend to focus on the British when we have this discussion, but let’s be clear: the entire world was beaten into submission by the entire European continent) began to colonize, rape and oppress the rest of the world. Why? Because Asia, Africa, South America and North America had resources that they lusted for. Other regions in the world had begun to excel in various areas that the Europeans hadn’t. While Asian countries were building inventions and African countries were developing mathematical theories, Europeans were improving their guns (with gun powder acquired from the Asians). Did that make them more intelligent? Or was it just good timing? Was it immoral and royally effed up? Did it change the way we all look at the world and divide us all? Hell yes. But it was done in the name of greed, not racism.
We all know that racism started there, to justify the actions of the Europeans. If the lands you stole and pillaged were populated by ignorant, sub-human savages, then no harm, no foul. Continue to perpetuate this belief, and no one can accuse you of doing evil. And it continued and got shipped to America along with slavery in order to make the slaves feel inferior and to make them more docile, and to justify slavery.
After slaves were freed, whites and African-Americans were on the exact same playing field. Poor whites especially latched on to racism. During slavery they weren’t the elite, but where able to feel superior to slaves. After that was gone, clinging on to this fantastical idea of white supremacy was all they had to keep them going.
And that is what they are continuing to do. By suggesting that Blacks are genetically predisposed to be intellectually inferior, you are justifying the fact that schools in predominately black areas STILL don’t get the same resources as schools in white areas. North Fulton county’s schools ran circles around those in my area, and it was no secret that schools in Georgia are still very much segregated. But why fund these schools equally? Hell, Blacks are already stupid. A few more computers and some decent textbooks won’t help much. *rolls eyes*
It pisses me off just thinking about the fact that I didn’t have a textbook in AP Spanish b/c no one thought kids at my school would get that far. Eff you and everything you stand for.
My school was full of kids who drank the racist Kool-Aid, and began to accept the fact that they weren’t meant to succeed. It’s a damn self-fulling prophecy, not a genetic fact.
I rose to the top academically because I was supported by my mother, a teacher, who read to me EVERY SINGLE NIGHT as a child, and exposed me to things – trips to the museum, historical sites and trips to the zoo, etc- that stimulated my mind. Unfortunately, not every one is provided those same opportunities. I went to those same hood ass schools, with limited resources, and did well because I had a strong foundation beneath me. White parents often don’t have to supplement there kids’ educations that way b/c their schools do it all for them. So, of course, standardized test scores tend to be higher in white communities. It’s not genetic. It’s a social and economic thing.
All of my siblings excelled academically too. Are my mother’s children, Ms. Grace, genetically predisposed to be intelligent? Or is it a fluke that the ni&&er blood in us didn’t stamp out any chance we had of being capable of intellectual thought.
Oh goodness, I’m getting mad now…but thank you very much for reminding me why I decided to go to an HBCU, so I can focus on getting my degree without debating ish like this with idiots like her.
Why does everyone keep asking where her data is? SHE DOESNT NEED ANY DATA FOR WHAT SHE SAID!!! She has made any claims!! All she said is that she’s open to the possibility which means that she is also open to the possibility to be proven wrong.
Secondly, she never apologized for her opinion. She never recanted her words. She actually only apologized that her opinion hurt (mine) your feelings. I think we often need to do a better job of reading comprehension
If you’re going to use
Women tend to perform less well in math due at least in part to prenatal levels of testosterone, which also account for variations in mathematics performance within genders.
as a spring board to discuss genetics heritability and intelligence, I need to see your sources and their methodology. I can’t accept that at face value.
Then take issue with that point and not the one about black folk. That’s a substantive claim. Saying that “Women tend to perform less well in math” is NOT THE SAME THING as saying Black people might possibly in some weird way be genetically inferior/superior
She uses it to support her assertions about black folk.
…This suggests to me that some part of intelligence is genetic, just like identical twins raised apart tend to have very similar IQs…
Which is the basis of everything. That’s her assertion, that because women do poorly on math allegedly due to lower neonatal levels of testosterone, intelligence has a genetic component which carries over to black folk, and by proxy, asian folk.
First, as has been stated various times up thread, race is largely regarded as a social construct. Gender is the result of genetics. To assert that a (sketchy) result in genetics is applicable to a social construct is not logical, and incorrect.
By your own admission, it’s not the same thing.
“This suggests to me that some part of intelligence is genetic” – I think that everyone on this site would agree with this. This is not what is in question, what is in question is is there a difference between the genetics of blk folk and 2520s. Furthermore, she used this line as to reason why she is opened to the idea. She still made no absolute declaration.
“To assert that a (sketchy) result in genetics is applicable to a social construct is not logical, and incorrect.” – I disagree. Here’s why. We can create our social constructs to match our genetics. Like I wrote upthread, I wouldnt be suprised if all of our social constructs were (re)defined so that the 2520 was genetically superior.
She made no absolute declaration- but she used it to support her logical progression. Her support is weak, thus her logical progression is as well. If you want to have the conversation about the heritability of intelligence, you need to be coming with another approach. Perhaps something along the line on average, that African Americans tend to have a decreased amount of folds in their brain, leading to a decreased amount of surface area, which a logical progression could lead to that there is a biological basis for decreased intelligence levels- as Rushton and Jensen tried (and failed) to make the case 30 some years ago.
I will agree that some part of intelligence is genetic to the extent that the development of our brains and the capacity for various problem solving abilities. I diverge at the notion that some races are genetically predisposed for higher levels of ‘intelligence’. The quantifiable 7% of genetic variance in different socially identified racial groups doesn’t represent a significance difference to me- I may be wrong, but I don’t think I am. I’ve seen enough research to be fairly secure in my position, until new reputable, replicable research comes out, I’m good.
Second point…it assumes that the various races are genetically disposed to varying levels of intelligence, and then the social constructs were erected around the disparities in intelligence.
I disagree.
I think evolutionary pressures selected various geographically located groups of people to participate in certain behaviors. These behaviors gave rise to different cultures, values, and beliefs. These values, cultures and beliefs were favored by society at large – when these societies met, some societies were better well equipped to achieve a favorable outcome for their own in-group, as opposed to the population at large.
As they say, the winner writes history, and the social constructs of the ‘winning’ group becomes the norm, whereas the social constructs of the out group is subjugated.
I think it is impossible to look at intelligence without the context of culture.
It appears that we differ on the nature of social norms and that’s too huge a debate to have here
This bytch is nutz and just wanted some attention. She is probably getting more black d*ck than Kim Kardashian. (drops mic..exits stage left).
What she’s expressing is purely speculative, A lot of the commentators on vsb already went through the reasons why she is incorrect. “Scientists” have been trying to prove racial inferiority for centuries–without success.
She says “I didn’t mean to shy away from that opinion at dinner”—which sounds like she may have had a different opinion in person (perhaps more subtle) and then in her email goes on to solidify the blatantly racist opinion. It seems like the person she sent the email to is of similar opinion (since she’s reassuring them that does indeed consider this theory) and was at the dinner, so why would they send the email out? Sounds like a set-up.
strange and disappointing all around.
Yes, people who want to talk about Black’s being more athletically gifted then find this racist or insulting are hypocrites.
My take, everybody here is stupid. Anyone know how many black people play hockey professionally? How about the “black” vs “white” ratio in soccer? Or to control for location, the “white” vs “non-white” ratio in soccer in Europe? Hmm. Depending on where I’m from, I wouldn’t see any genetic advantage athletically when it comes to blacks or white.
What about sports teams in China? If I lived there, would I be right to infer that blacks and whites are clearly inferior due to their levels of representation in those sports?
No. Sure, we all have genetic differences. But intelligence and athleticism are not things you are just born with. If that was the case, then we could pick up some guy who’d never played some sport before and have him kick pro ass or some woman who’d never opened a chemistry book before and have her kick phd ass. But that doesn’t happen. Both are products of hard work, motivation, drive, socioeconomic situation, nutrition, and so many other things.
So what happens here is that one thinks. Well, I know she is supposed to be an intelligent person (she calls herself a genius by proxy of her having genius kids). So, how is it that someone so smart can say or think something so dumb. Given that making a fool of yourself runs so counter to the attitude of people who get to her position, the only thing that could allow that to happen is that she is racist. Or she isn’t as smart as she thinks she is. But it is easier to paint her racist than live with the knowledge that even if everyone was smart and educated we’d still have stupid shit like this happen.
Well stated.
Crap, I forgot to self censor on my last post. Please feel free to correct the offending term.
Anyway, this topic reminds me of the recent Gatorade commercials. Have you guys noticed that in the part where they show how Gatorade has revolutionized athletics, the only two white athletes shown are Mia Ham and Peyton Manning? Perhaps it is a social thing in the US to try and make up for things by exulting Black success in sports as a hypercorrection to the “we are better than you” by showing “you are better than us”
You know what, we wouldn’t be talking about this if it came from one of the teabaggers at a Tea Party protest rally. However, because this racist idea, the same idea that has been used to justify slavery, colonialism, and European imperialism in Africa, was uttered by a Harvard law student, we think it deserves credence. It doesn’t. I’m proud to see the many many excellent comments by my fellow VSBs and VSSs. But let’s be clear about this, her comment is no different than the host of other theories based in racism used to justify the oppression of African peoples.
Is she racists? Of course she is. Was she wrong for saying it? She was wrong for putting it in writing, and thinking no one would have a problem with her statement. Personally, I’m more disappointed in us, educated black folk. We have allowed her background to sway us in this discussion. What she said is no different than how some of the tea partiers feel. Same racism, different packaging. This is just proof of the power behind the name “Harvard”.
We interrupt your regularly scheduled comments to bring up two points:
1. Anything is possible. So it is possible that one group of people may be genetically predisposed to being less “intelligent” than another.
2. None of that sh_t matters unless you plan on recreating Mendel’s experiments with homo sapiens.
As you were.
I just read the entire email and I’m much less inclined to think she is racist and more inclined to think she badly worded some things and like most people in the world, has an imperfect understanding of probability, statistics, and the proper was to draw inferences from data.
She ends it with “Please don’t pull a Larry Summers on me” which clearly shows that she knows in the wrong eyes without any context on the previous discussion that sparked the email, it will be inflammatory.
I often have conversations with people where I discuss things dispassionately so that I can respond with arguments completely rooted in logic and try to remove emotion or what society may say is right from the picture. So, being a scientifically minded guy, I can certainly see this conversation occurring between people who are not racist at all. And I can easily see an observer being horrified by what they hear.
Of course, she’s not a scientist per se, but I was recently part of a panel discussing the role of ethics in engineering. Our response was that as scientists, our role is to pursue knowledge for it’s sake without concern for the ethics. That is the job for the people who pay and regulate our work.
Just a little grain of salt there for when you get a scientist drunk and then proceed to have a serious conversation with them. Results may not be what you expect.
I always find it funny how the same issues and arguments resurface in order to speak down to and about the inferiority of people of African descent. Why folks gotta hate on us ALL the time…smh
*disclaimer* Please forgive me as I’ve studied developmental psychology (got my MA last spring in it in fact), this comment may be long…
I am no expert and I have not read through any comments yet nor did I waste my time reading through this pseudo intellectual’s full letter. The excerpt you pulled Champ has enough info in it to answer your question; yes this is a racist/prejudicial view point. The fact is it can be boiled down to the theories of Nature v. Nurture and whether or not children/people grow and develop more so as a result of one or the other. In which case, I believe its both and there is no way to tease out the two. Take this quote from Ms. Grace’s excerpt
“I could also obviously be convinced that by controlling for the right variables, we would see that they are, in fact, as intelligent as white people under the same circumstances.”
The key phrase would be “under the SAME circumstances”… the fact is African Americans in this country have rarely EVER been reared in, or given the same privileges, circumstances or opportunities that (for the sake of using her same comparison group) our white counterparts. Sure over the past 40 years we as African Americans have been given more opportunities to achieve and there are a myriad of examples of people that have in fact succeeded and exceeded racist societal expectations (think the rose that grows out of concrete). But if you really consider the fact that #1, intelligence and IQ are two different things, even though they are used interchangeably. IQ as defined by websters is: a score determined by one’s performance on a standardized intelligence test relative to the average performance of others of the same age. Intelligence is defined as the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason. Yes IQ is a genetic trait, if two people with low IQ’s have a child it is likely that their child will have a low IQ and vice versa (Nature). But it is also possible that someone with a low or average IQ can learn, and be taught to excel in school/life if given the right tools, attention, and resources (Nurture). The fact is your environment influences how you develop just as much as your parents dna. If you consider the extent to which this society made it a point to try to keep black people impoverished and deprived for all the time we’ve been in this country it becomes easier to understand the achievement and to some point the IQ gap. Don’t get me started on the fact that IQ is tested and measured via a standardized tests which are inherently biased toward a western individualistic culture and ultimately against the collectivist cultures that most minorities and definitely those of African descent learn best in.
I digress, it is a proven fact that nutrition, proper sleep and exposure to ample resources lends itself to increased IQ and the ability to learn. That being the case if black people have been more often than not impoverished or without resources over the course of history where whites have not, it is no wonder when tested or studied focusing on certain variables that things are not even. The fact is unless everyone is given the same basic opportunities, resources and circumstances you’ll never really be able to see whether one person is inherently predisposed to being less intelligent or having a lower IQ, let alone across races. So there is no point in spouting off grandiose assertions that one race is superior to the other.
Furthermore, your arse is a LAW student WTF u know about some developmental or behavioral psychology.
Cosign.
Congrats on your Masters. I’m hoping to be there this time next year.
@Shay
Thanks
. Good luck with yours, its an amazing feeling to be done. It’ll be over in no time!
Co-sign everything Mo said.
Peyso, why are you here? (as in on earth)
I don’t believe she should issue an apology on something she truly believes; right or wrong. She would be a wimp if she did. I think it’s completely asinine to think this way, but she is entitled. I, in no way, shape, or form agree with her.
just wanted to say welcome and sh*t to all the newcomers on today’s post. too many of ya’ll do get around individually.
also, i just wanted to say that deviant’s comment pretty much summarizes my opinion:
“1. Anything is possible. So it is possible that one group of people may be genetically predisposed to being less “intelligent” than another.
2. None of that sh_t matters unless you plan on recreating Mendel’s experiments with homo sapiens.”
that is all
Interesting.
I’ll preface my comment by informing you that I’ve spent about half of my career (I’m a Structural Engineer) doing research for 3 of the country’s leading research universities in my field of study. And while I admit that the study of structures, structural materials, and structural subgrades is probably quite different from the study of people (be it genetically or socially), what IS similar is the process of studying and/or testing itself.
When doing such a study, one of the very first things to be done is to define the parameters. In this case, it’s “intelligent” itself. What is intellegent? What does one mean by intelligent/intelligence? If she defines intelligence as the ability to achieve a certain score on some standardized test, then of course one could determine that whites are more intelligent. Why? Because the very subject matter on such exams are (although unintentionally so) culturally geared towards students who fit the “majority profile” (aka white). In addition, students have to be in a position or in a school system that assures that the subject matter that they will be tested on will be available AND that the most effective means of learning such material are also available. This is why students who attend schools with more resources tend to score higher on such exams. And that is why people will pay through the nose to send their children to such schools. It is an acknowledgement of that bias.
As you probably gather from the previous paragraph, I don’t believe the discrepancy to be a matter of genetics, I believe it to be a matter of exposure and opportunity. If I am in China taking an exam that references Chinese culture, made by Chinese people, testing my ability to meet Chinese standards, then without a significant degree of extra effort on my part, I will struggle to score competitive marks on this exam when compared to my Chinese counterparts who will inherently have advantages over me just due to cultural familiarity. They are allowed a level of mediocracy that I am not.
This really exposes a greater issue, which is the fact that the black or African American (or whatever you like to go by) still doesn’t quite have a “place” in American culture when it comes to all things standardized. That’s another story though…
The other side of the coin, though, says that people who fit the “majority profile” would be as disadvantaged (if not more) if they had to perform outside of their domain. Which is true. But I don’t believe this to be amatter of genetics either. And yes, I am implying that certain positions that black people are put into in the arena of school and/or corporate America are outside of our domain (or rather, we are MORE outside of our domain than our white counterparts). And this is not me saying that we lack the ability, it IS me saying that we are less conditioned for it initially.
But fine, let’s be literal here. “Intelligence” is a capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc (per Dictionary.com). To say someone is less intelligent than someone else means that they don’t have the same capacity for learning. To that I say, “Capacity for learning WHAT?” THAT’s the real issue we should be focusing on….the “what”.
And I harp on that point only because I think if we (very smart people of all race (read: cultures)) start forcing people who make these erroneous statements to actually define their parameters and specify what they are referring to, then they’ll have to either put up or shut up. Because for the most part, such statements just don’t hold water (as her’s also does not).
That is all. Focker – out!
I Concur 100%…LEARN WHAT? May be if we put her to task to explain that then find herself on ther other side of the realm.
“….as scientists, our role is to pursue knowledge for it’s sake without concern for the ethics. ”
Thats not a very comforting sentiment.
Okay it is time to put in end to this race and intelligence bs theory.
After the centuries long execution of marginalization black people within American society I just want to add that it would be nice for people to take this situation and observe the parallels between us and other groups around in other societies.
For example, the Burakumin of Japan are a traditionally oppressed minority group in that country. Although they are genetically identical to the Japanese minority(same race and ethnicity) they still score on average 16pts lower on IQ tests(blacks score a median of 15pts. lower to whites). Once they immigrate to America, however, the IQ gap vanishes.
This example complete debunks the whole race & intelligence theory that many white Americans adhere to.
Check Burakumin IQ on google. The fifth link has a soft copy of a Psychology book with a section that discusses cross-cultural group discrimination and IQ differences that start on page 318. There are other articles about the history of Burakumin discrimination in Japan.
*Identical to Japanese Majority
First of all i am more than appaled that someone who is attending so-called harvard can come up with conclusions like the one in her mail, the true ignorance resides in her brain, why? because society has never been able to define what intelligence really is, this is not mathematics, its not as easy as saying 1+1= 2
Also the fact that she boldly says that african americans are ”genetically” less intelligent really doesnt make any sense for a law school student to dive into scientific field when she, by all accounts is neither a scientist or has never conducted any such research to determine the validity of such outlandish claims. I am also curious about another thing when she said african americans was she talking about blacks of slave descent? or blacks in general because as some of you have pointed earlier african immigrants in the united states have academic performances that more often than not superior to their peers (either white or black kids).Furthermore whatt makes her email so racially charged is the fact that she willingly or unwillingly ignores the historical and social factors that have made african americans to be less inclined not only to seek better education for themselves but also to perform better, i mean for all we know this lady could be saying some whites are genetically inclined to live in the trailer park while others are not, i`m sorry but no matter how you think you could nuance this doesnt that sound abnormally stupid to think some folks have biological predispositions that will make them live in poverty?
Speaking of intelligence, it is not something you’re born with, in my humble opinion ,intelligence is something that you acquire , how you acquire this intelligence is what makes the difference.In America i have personally noticed that bookstores are usually populated by white kids and their parents….based on this factor alone its not rocket science to see why a 4 hero white kid could be more articulate than his black counterpart who as in most cases in this country is raised by ignorant,poor and sometimes unemeployed parents who could care less about encouraging their offspring to read a book,this and many other factors automatically put him at a disadvantage in life
Why are people — African Americans and others — so willing to engage discussions of African exceptionalism and African inferiority nowadays?
One of my favorite quotes is from a Moms Mabley stand-up routine — ‘If you don’t know when someone’s spitting in your face,’ she said, ‘I don’t care whatever else you think you know.’
These are not innocent attempts to settle nagging questions. These sorts of ‘questions’ are bald-faced insults that too many African Americans allow to run on unchecked because of their own unwarranted questions about their personal mental chops, and because of their misplaced attempts to blend in and seem reasonable, thoughtful, ‘cultured,’ and not violent and savage like the Africans on the evening news.
The best response to this chick was the one tested and tossed early on in the OP — ‘shut the fuck up, you stupid cave b*tch.’ The rest of the is-it-or-isn’t-it hamlet routine, for so many reasons others have already noted, is utter fucking bullshit.
As a lawyer myself, I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. F*ck that b*tch. We have more important things to do than argue with a fool.
this is upsetting, to say the least.
Great post. The first thing that sticks out to me is the notion of whites as a control group. This is what makes the whole argument racist (or more specifically, white supremacist) to me. If this were truly about genetic difference and intellectual capacity, wouldn’t that include unbiased analysis? Given the examples she cited, I am surprised that the “model minority” wasn’t mentioned, as Asian students are often believed to be smarter and more resourceful (and make excellent study partners, just saying).
Its sad that so many in our society are still set on establishing a hierarchy- particularly white folks trying to establish dominance and put us on the bottom. Will we ever get past this? Obama probably represents an outlier or some extraordinary example. Is this part of the backlash response to Obama’s presidency, like whites just can’t help themselves from taking us down a notch (ya’ll ain’t really smart, don’t start feeling yourselves too much. This will never happen again, science sez!)
I also have to ask, with this preoccupation (which is centuries old) is there some practical goal in mind? If Blacks are just naturally less intelligent, regardless of condition or status, what are the policy prescriptions? Perhaps grace suggest we should go back to largely segregated school systems (oh wait…) and pay no attention to cries of inequality. After all, why bother if they stupid anyway?
“sh*t, there isn’t even any conclusive evidence that race itself actually exists.”
Righ. Genetically, race is so hard to define it’s meaningless. There could be some particular group of Africans that were stupid and it wouldn’t mean a damn thing about people the next country over, or even the next town over. There’s too much variation within each ‘race’, and it’s ridiculous genetically to define groups by skin color, like we do socially.
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