i’ve never met helena andrews, and i most likely never will.
but, after reading “successful, black, and lonely” and watching the corresponding video, i can say that i’ve known, dated, slept with, talked to, discussed, consoled, admonished, sympathized with, and theorized about her my entire adult life.
i also know that her washington post profile will probably spawn a nation-wide discussion about the perpetually single successful black female of the saks fifth serengeti, and that ms andrews and her upcoming memoir (“bitch is the new black”) will be dissected, debated, and dichotomized more times than drake’s appeal.
admittedly, i don’t know exactly why ms. andrews herself is single. her lonely lot could be due to anything from bad choices, bad luck, and bad timing to haughtiness, hopelessness, and halitosis. but, i’ve known enough of her doppelgangers to have a pretty good idea of a few things she might be able to do (or stop doing) to improve her fortune:
1. change
i know suggesting that someone change themselves to better their romantic circumstances isn’t the most politically correct thing to say, but i can’t continue to ignore the pink and green elephant with the “she’s (the helena doppelgangers) probably just not attractive enough to the men she’s most attracted to” sticker on his ass that always seems to show up when having this discussion. mind you, this isn’t suggesting that she’s (or any other helena doppelganger) unattractive or undesirable, just maybe not attractive or desirable enough to the type of guys she fancies.
having stringent standards is fine. you can’t tell another person what they should or shouldn’t be attracted to. but if the sticker on the elephant’s ass is true, you’re left with two options
a) wait and hope that one of those men will lower his standards and take a flyer on you
b) find out what kind of women those men are most attracted to and do your best to mimic them (basically do everything lil kim has done since 1996)
2. realize that our grass isn’t that much greener
a latent underlying theme in the successful but single young black woman discussion is that black men with similar “qualifications” have a much, much easier time navigating the dating and relationship game. since the ratio (and nature) is in our favor, we can apparently pick, choose, and discard indiscriminately while black women are passive subjects to our random whims.
while the numbers definitely do favor us, the only ones able to truly take advantage of this imbalance are those in the top 5 to 10% (who’d get what they wanted regardless of the ratio) or those trying to run through and rack up as many different women as possible. for the rest of us, the process of finding an available, attractive, and compatible mate can be just as baffling, confusing, frustrating, disheartening, and even occasionally depressing.
basically, this sh*t is hard as hell for all of us.
mind you, i’m not bringing this up to have a “your woes aren’t as bad as mine” battle with black women. but, knowing that your issue isn’t quite as unique as you think it is does wonders when trying to keep a positive outlook and limit the blame-gaming.
3. date out
to all the sistas who are deeply ambivalent about stepping out and trying “something old”, its really not that serious. if you’re lucky you’ll be on earth for approximately 80 years, and I’d hate for you to spend a good portion of that time sacrificing your own happiness for some romanticized technicolor racial loyalty.
do. you.
and don’t worry, you can bring him to the barbecue too. we’ll even make him a plate.
4. pay close attention to her
to expound: everybody has at least a couple women in their sphere of influence who are either happily married or seemingly never without multiple desirable suitors. sometimes these women aren’t nearly as attractive on paper as others in their group, but they somehow stay somewhat unaffected by the dating and mating issues plaguing their peers.
instead of clowning them for “losing their identity” and always choosing d*cks over chicks, pay attention to what they’re doing and how the hell they’re consistently able to produce “better” results i mean, if you wanted to be a millionaire you’d probably try to emulate other millionaires, right? how is this any different?
5. remember that you’re not entitled to sh*t
this is an especially hard concept to grasp (for women and men) because we’ve all been schooled that life is by and large an incentive laden meritocracy. if you work hard for four years, you’re (rightly) entitled to degree. if you do your job excessively well, you’re (rightly) entitled to a raise and (maybe) a promotion.
romance, on the other hand, doesn’t work that way. we’re all entitled to and deserving of a modicum of fairness and respect, but no one is entitled to be in a great relationship. its not supposed to happen. if it does? fine. if not, oh well. sh*t happens, and you’re probably not going to be getting any romantic entitlement refund checks in the mail
i know this sounds a bit discouraging, but realizing that you’re not entitled to romantic happiness has a funny way of fighting off the type of faulty (and self-defeating) mindset that could led to you saying something like this…
…and wondering why you’re having dating difficulty.
6. move
it always amuses me when women move to ultra-competitive, ultra-cutthroat, ultra superficial, and ultra cold-hearted cities and then are shocked when the dating game there is just as ultra-competitive, ultra-cutthroat, ultra-superficial, and ultra cold-hearted. not everyone is built to live in atlanta or new york or l.a. or d.c., and there’s nothing wrong with admitting that to yourself.
the sports guy bill simmons put it best:
“It’s crazy to me how many women have trouble finding a decent boyfriend, yet they’ll stay in the same city for 10 years. If you were fishing in one section of a river every day, and you never caught anything, would you keep returning to the exact same spot, or would you try your luck somewhere else?”
7. learn the difference between wanting to be in a relationship and being in love with the idea of being in a relationship
when talking to helena doppelgangers about their relationship difficulties, you usually get the sense that they want the perks of a serious coupling (a warm bed, a ring, a date to the company christmas party, an answer to the “why aren’t you dating?” question they’re asked every time their mom calls) but aren’t willing to make the sacrifices needed to get there. so, even if they happen to meet their prince idris, they wouldn’t be ready for it at all.
plus, relationship minded men (and women) have a tendency to be attracted and drawn to who’s actually down instead of who’s just looking for a suitable mate so they can finally cross it off of their to-do lists
usually this is where i’d end the entry with some snarky summary or concluding series of questions, but i have to say that reading and writing about helena andrews has produced a bit more ambivalence than i anticipated, and i’m not sure exactly how to wrap this up.
maybe my ambivalence is just me reaching the point of “why successful black women are single” discussion fatigue. maybe she reminds me of too many of my friends to just be cool with offering the type of unaffected didactic advice/criticism/snark i’m used to, or maybe the fact that i didn’t even acknowledge the possibly of a 10,000 pound “she’s single because we (black men) need to step our games up” elephant standing in the room says more than this 1,300 word entry.
who knows?
i do know that if “bitch is the new black“, “bitching about bitchy black women” is definitely the new crack, and i think its time for us to find a way to kick this addiction.
—the champ
Related posts:
- The VSB Files — Episode 003: Black Woman Down? A Conversation with Helena Andrews
- the transcript (from every piece ever televised about “successful, but single” black women)
- no he didnt!: the five worst times to approach a black woman
- bagging the bangingest: how to attract a black woman
- 3 completely practical reasons why he’s with a white woman
{ 510 comments… read them below or add one }
A *newbie* and the first comment…
Damn, my day has just improved exponentially!
…ummm, let me go reread…
@Tenchi, welcome!!!!
@Tenchi, Welcome to your new addiction, enjoy yourself!!
@Just X, Addiction is right… My manager just asked me if we need to have a “come to Jesus” moment!- smh
@Tenchi,
welcome and sh*t
At lunch today, one of my friends argued in favor of dating non-black, upper middle class dudes with money who have no idea about hip hop relationship culture. There’s so much less dumb stuff for them to UNlearn. They also know to do chivalrous guy stuff as a matter of course.
@inHIcotton,
hmmm… OR because you actually stumble upon a tasty lookin’ piece of white chocolate… kinda robin thicke about the face & vocals. why not get a sample of that?
@inHIcotton, define “Hip-Hop relationship culture” and list a little of the “dumb stuff to unlearn.”
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
Eff that define “They also know to do chivalrous guy stuff as a matter of course.”
@Dorian G.
Just another case of black people being as racist, condescending, and [didn't even want the following words to appear on strikethrough] as white people are towards black people. Do we really need to shyt on our own just to feel better?
@An Island,
And stereotyping a whole other segment of the population. I’ono, but as far as I can tell hip-hop culture (uummm, whatever that means) is prevalent pretty much across the board. Plus, there as many un-chivalrous d***ks in one race as in another, and just as many sweethearts; no race has a monopoly one either one. I’m definitely not one of those people who say they are color blind. I see color, but I also realize it doesn’t really tell me much about that individual I’m interacting with at the moment. I think stereotyping is a cope out.
@An Island,
uhh yah my thoughts exactly. && please lets separate modern mainstream hip hop from underground/oldschool.
great post, Champikins. i appreciate your insight and perspective on the matter. as some one who has been (for all intents and purposes) single for the last few years, each offered “improvement” is certainly worth looking into.
after having watched Something New with Sanaa and fine a$s Simon Baker, i had to remind myself that there are “other” options out there in the dating world. but as i mentioned on twitter, 2520 dudes just arent that into me. ive never had one approach me or express interest. and since im not interested in playing the aggressor, i guess 2520s (at least in pgh) arent a route mapped out for me. *shrug* idk.
while im not hopeless about finding love and a serious relationship, i do give the G-man a super o_O like there’s GOT TAH BE a dude or 2 out there worth even a short, semi-meaningful courtship for some reassurance that im capable of maintaining a mature, romantic relationship.
until then, im still surveying cats at the animal shelter to add to my Team of Me…
slight correction:
*after having watched Something New with Sanaa and fine a$s Simon Baker AGAIN RECENTLY…
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
Ooooohhh, *drooling profusely* Simon Barker. I will watch the show ‘The Mentalist’ every now and then just to get my Barker fix.
Lol, at ‘Team of Me’
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean, that dude is further proof that men really have no clue what designates an “attractive man” b/c that was on scruffy doofy lookin’ white cat to me.
@Panama Jackson,
He is anti-cute to me…lol
Then again I don’t find too many 2520 kats attractive.
@miss t-lee,
lol! i like scruffy 2520s like simon baker, (tasty), gerard butler (yummy), and russell crowe (delish). mmm mmm mmmm!!
@ The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
I’m with you on Gerard Butler…lol
@Panama Jackson, Real talk homie…..I stay lookin at chicks like huh….how is dude attractive to you…..then again I do see a lot of brothas with what I call “Tiger Eye” -the inexplicable love of homely white chicks for bustdown purposes which happen to become relationships when u realize that she will do anything ANYTHING
@Blacklaw, LMAO @ “Tiger Eye”.
@Panama Jackson,
‘scruffy doofy lookin’-pretty much what would be listed under my match.com physical requirements section. Scruffy, doofy and lanky.
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean, there are more than Black folks and 2520s. There are in betweens to the extremes. Maybe you need a Ninja Assassin in your life. Or a good Bollywood dancin’ IT guy.
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
Maybe you need a Ninja Assassin in your life. Or a good Bollywood dancin’ IT guy.
You will not kill me this morning. I repeat you will NOT!
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
Lol, why the poor Indian guy have to be a bollywood dancing fool. I love bollywood flicks. Really, really love them (like I’ll regularly trek to Naz 8 movie theaters and be the only black chick in the theater to see a flick), and I’m still disappointed that I haven’t meet a real, live, Indian guy that will spontenously burst into song and dance. I regularly ask my friends to do this, but ….nothing. Losers, the one time I wish someone would embrace their cultural stereotype they let me down.
@ofloveandotherdemons,
(like I’ll regularly trek to Naz 8 movie theaters and be the only black chick in the theater to see a flick),
I will say it again: a chick after my own heart. Shoot, I have my Bollywood 6 Theater fidelity card. They know me down there as thee black chick. Lol!
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
LOL my bad. i have a TERRIBLE habit of classifying ALL non-blacks as 2520s. when i said 2520 dudes, i was referring to non-brothas (and this could actually include the “white black guy”).
none have ever been so bold as to approach me. a couple indian guys actually but i just wasn’t feeling them. and they prob thought EYE was indian and not black. so…
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean, funny you bring that up, I did too, to an extent (the extent being “Blindian”)
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
Umm, I thought we were going to the shelter together.
@Ivy St.,
Umm, I thought we were going to the shelter together.
regardless of the context, this is a depressing sentence
@Ivy St.,
lol i will make sure to have you in tow to recruit a furry foster child.
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
but as i mentioned on twitter, 2520 dudes just arent that into me
do you think its that, or maybe that they’re scared to/don’t know how to approach?
@The Champ,
well as far as im concerned, them NOT approaching me is as good as them not being interested. they end in the same result… me not dating 2520/non-black guy
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
May I ask why a non-black guy has to be white? What about Latino or Asian?
@Brownbelle, maybe it’s that the 2520 is the only other type of guy she (and others) would be interested in?
@Brownbelle,
sorry, as i mentioned above. i use 2520 guys interchangeably with non-black guys. there are VERY few latinos in pgh so theres not a large pool to work with anyway. nonetheless, aside from the occasional indian who thinks i’m indian, non-black guys just dont seem into me (or havent been bold enough to approach me)
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
QUESTION FOR ALL: Where did this 2520 term come from? I don’t get it? Lol Please explain… i feel slow
I am one of those unaffected. I have always been able to keep a guy and a relationship. before being married I was a serial monogamist with a few open periods.. what I know is nasty a$$ bytchy attitudes very rarely help you get a man and most of these chicks seem to have those…. get over your f!cking self you have agood job a degree youre ms independent and all that. Great be proud but when you overdose on your own hype….well you see what you get….
@shay-d-lady,
You are so on point with this one!
I’ve never understood “independently dependent divas” (IDDs) who think it is okay to treat a guy like an a$$hole, just because they have a degree, whip, condo, get free ish more often than not based on looks alone, and have a flock of like minded friends that co-sign on all their foulness. The IDDs who claim to want a good man will never be able to close the deal because they will never be able to see beyond the veil of selfishness that cloaks a majority of what they do.
@tzerai,
Yep. Blocking their own blessings…and then complaining.
@shay-d-lady,
what I know is nasty a$$ bytchy attitudes very rarely help you get a man and most of these chicks seem to have those
good point. though its funny you mention this because i know so many women who are like this and have MEN. seemingly good men (looking from the outside in) at that. hell, i know plenty of chicks with OK/mediocre credentials (deg and job wise) that have terrible attitudes and have men. so while i def agree that a nasty, entitled attitude can be a woman’s detriment, it can also be the very thing that seems to have no bearing on her ability to attract and keep men.
i notice that when i’m nice, polite, blushing Gemmie i attract the typical “nice guy” who typically finishes last but not because he’s nice (more because he’s a pain in the ass for women who don’t like push-overs). times when ive been the Gem-enator who does act as if the world should be thankful im in it because of XYZ reasons, i attract very confident/arrogant men who are more on the side of a “bad boy” (even if he’s highly educated and has a high-status job).
i guess i say ALL that (lol) to say attitude may influence the TYPE of guy that a woman attracts and doesn’t always act as a deterrant.
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
thats been my experience as well….every woman that i have ever met who was just an awful human being, has had a very sweet and loving husband/boyfriend. so, stank attitudes are working for somebody!
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean, notice that when i’m nice, polite, blushing Gemmie i attract the typical “nice guy” who typically finishes last but not because he’s nice (more because he’s a pain in the ass for women who don’t like push-overs). times when ive been the Gem-enator who does act as if the world should be thankful im in it because of XYZ reasons, i attract very confident/arrogant men who are more on the side of a “bad boy” (even if he’s highly educated and has a high-status job).
This is SOOOOOOO true.. I’ve been the latter for some time now and I’ve somehow been lucky enough to meet a string of successful and single guys who couldn’t get enough of me. But I attribute that to just having confidence and being comfortable with yourself. There’s a HUGE difference between having a stank ass holier than thou attitude and just being cool and confident at all times. I think men, especially successful ones, are baffled when they meet a women who seemingly doesn’t give a f*ck about anything they have or if they leave or stay (all while being perfectly polite and charming about it). They don’t know what to do cause theyre so used to women fawning over them and sweating. And every man loves a challenge.
So ladies, BE THAT CHALLENGE!! NEVER SETTLE FOR LESS!! Now go out there and be somebody!!! lol
@The One & True GEM… of the Ocean,
but this is my point.. I can be a real bytch at times, but to my hubby and my loved ones I put that shyt aside.
Maybe these women do the same.
Its hard in corporate America so i get her point about developing that bytch facade as protection but you gotta let that shyt go when you get home.’
I am a completely different person outside of work, I have phone, I mingle, I smile…..
and while I have never dated a guy at work (well my husband works with me now) I think its a fair trade off.
A lot of these chicks cant turn it off and while at the club are still in bytch mode. Yes they are able to get a man but rarely able to keep one.
Also I hate the whole “something new” threat of dating a 2520. Dont nobody give a dayum.
If the fish werent biting at this pond do you really thing they care if you move to another one? do it and shut the f!ck up.
@shay_d_lady,
i def hear your point. i guess i was just trying to make the point that from the outside in you cant tell where the bytch starts and ends (i.e. is it just a facade versus true personality?) and how men fit into that (i.e. are they attracted to that? are they weak men who dont know any better? is the attitude even a factor?).
@shay-d-lady,
They alllllllllllllllways seem to have a “Man,” BUT many of those dudes are former shells of themselves. The lapdog she has browbeat him into being. Knowing that this damn sho ain’t what I’m after is my only solace…
@bittersweet’s baby,
They alllllllllllllllways seem to have a “Man,” BUT many of those dudes are former shells of themselves. The lapdog she has browbeat him into being. Knowing that this damn sho ain’t what I’m after is my only solace…
yeah, i was about to say the same thing. i actually probably should have made “just because someone is in a relationship/has a man, doesn’t mean that sh*t is actually good. sometimes you’re doing yourself a favor by being single” as number 8
@The Champ, Cosign. Just cuz ppl live in a nice house dont mean they aint leveraged out the a$$ and just cuz u got a man/woman dont mean they worth a damn
@Blacklaw,
Hallelujah and Amen to that
@shay-d-lady,
AHMEN!
@shay-d-lady, what I know is nasty a$$ bytchy attitudes very rarely help you get a man and most of these chicks seem to have those…. get over your f!cking self you have agood job a degree youre ms independent and all that. Great be proud but when you overdose on your own hype
that is very true. a lot of women do take on this attitude that “i’m the sh*t so you should recognize it.”
and i keep reading women saying that so many women like this have men and my only response is they either held it in check for their men (or long enough to get one before they unleashed the dragon) or the dudes just aint what they used to be.
but it does say something that (even reading this article) that one of the things that stands out is that “man, i’d never want to date her” when meeting a lot of these “well-to-do” chicks. and its not that all women who cant find a man are like that, but it does seem like the assholes do get a lot of press.
@Panama Jackson, “a lot of women do take on this attitude that “i’m the sh*t so you should recognize it.” ”
I’ve actually stopped speaking to a friend of mine because of this attitude because it carried into our friendship.
@shay-d-lady,
Oh dear sahy-d, how I love thee. Lol!
And to what she said, I say co/sign.
@shay-d-lady, please put ur reply in 40 foot tall billboard with neon lights…like now!!…”I am one of those unaffected. I have always been able to keep a guy and a relationship. before being married I was a serial monogamist with a few open periods.. what I know is nasty a$$ bytchy attitudes very rarely help you get a man and most of these chicks seem to have those…. get over your f!cking self you have a good job a degree youre ms independent and all that. Great be proud but when you overdose on your own hype….well you see what you get….”
I bet those women dont see their incongruous method of dating as a issue. They see dating anyone even in this economy “not on their level” as a huge no-no. In real life most of us dont own a thing, in debt up the wazoo, if we got it going on we are the only ones in the fam to do so last most of us only have one stream of revenue and thats is vastly more important than how much you make and what you buy with it. My boys that make 50K plus are spoken for-kids, pets, married the whole thing it took some time for each one. We need to dead this “upgrade my status” if we date. Again Michelle Obama was AHEAD of Barack. He had no means to “take care of her/them” but he was working on it. I never hear American women of all races talk of this. If you white you best be a analyst at a major bank, if you black better have a undergrad from a HBCU with a Masters from PWI and a nice career to go with it. Again even in this crackhead economy American women INSIST on this-at all cost. I have repeated endlessly we date to “talk $hit” we must have a partner that makes everyone else but us happy. I dont need some career hawk, if she wants to work 18 hr days cool, I will bag someone else that doesnt (there are times she like me, must but face it thats not the norm). Last ladies no one cares about the crass materialism, no one but yall care about the house and car as character traits. Barack had a hole in his Chevy.
@tempsoner,
I don’t know how I’ll feel five years from now but right now I don’t even care too much about my potential hubby having all these advanced degrees && making millions… i deff would like him to be college educated. but really for me any concern i have about income is based on the fact that i want a lot of kids and kids cost money!! if i didnt want kids id probably marry a starving artist-preferably a poet or musician (or if i was makin enough bank to support the whole family) lol.
wow. well said. it’s ironic that only other site/blog that i frequent said like the opposite: that we should continue to [publicly] engage in this particular discourse. go figure. honestly we [black women] just have to really dig down and see what’s wrong, not to say that black men don’t need to do some digging either. i’m about to graduate from undergrad and i def see the problem but i’m not trying to read/hear about it all the time, it can be depressing and no man wants some depressed chick!
@Naomi, Screw the other blog you read, VSB is where it’s at!!!
@Naomi,
wow. well said. it’s ironic that only other site/blog that i frequent said like the opposite: that we should continue to [publicly] engage in this particular discourse.
what blog?
@Naomi, maybe Black men do need to do some digging. There should be a community center (like iPhone apps, they have one for just about everything in Black neighborhoods) to groom our future generations to be more eligible bachelors. Set us up to be educated to the teeth and at a 6-figure gig before 30 instead of to add to a long line of wanna super street dudes out to serially womanize, rack up a record, tie up a lot of our prime earning years behind bars, and knock up enough women by 20 to have more kids than days of the week we work.
Too bad I’m only half-joking.
@Naomi,
im w/ you naomi… this ish is depressing. i miss the days when i was oblivious to this whole phenomena. && sometimes i do get sick about hearing the same thing about black women being single/lonely… i feel like this constant message that “being a black woman sucks and so does being with one” is only making things worse… that combined with ppl constantly pointing out that in college bm are at an advantage when it comes to dating… not that they dnt already realize this but i think openly admitting this makes it even worse lol
Champ,
haven’t written in a while…been kinda busy…but I still check VSB frequently. Just want to say that I appreciate the gems of knowledge you continue to pen. I will definitely have to forward this to my peeps, as it is a good dialog starter, and also helps to define some of the tunnel vision folks I know who want it all…but bring nothing to the table other than a list of preferences (*cough* demands *cough*).
LMAO @ “i can’t continue to ignore the pink and green elephant”…that line could get me in trouble with one of my targeted demographics markets! Ha ha.
@tzerai,
damn. long time no type and sh*t. how have you been?
*Post re~read*
One of the things I always find interesting about this debate is the idea that being successful and “educated” (i.e. degreed) confers some type of deification on an individual.
There’s little to be “bitchy” about if your long term goal is your definition of success.
Sour grapes make vinegar, not wine…(bad analogy but *shrug*)
@Tenchi, One of the things I always find interesting about this debate is the idea that being successful and “educated” (i.e. degreed) confers some type of deification on an individual.
allegedly this is a huge problem in the Black community since (allegedly) so many young Black professionals are walking around like their sh*t don’t stink. seems that most women thing us guys are running through everything b/c we know we can do what we want so we have our choices and know it, and women are ending up lonely b/c they refuse to “settle” since all of the well-to-do dudes suck b/c of the aforementioned hoeing.
its a vicious cyle.
@Panama Jackson,
its a vicious cyle.
so vicious in fact that it was like “f*ck that extra c. i’m a do me”
@The Champ,
Dead!
@The Champ,
rofl!
i am without hope….hopefully that is temporary! i see that the type of black man i want does not want me, and im not ready to change (and not sure i will be)….but ive also never been one to discriminate. i made peace with the likelihood that my future husband was probably NOT going to be black a looooong time ago.
currently, im not dating for a myriad of reasons that all boil down to….i dont feel comfortable inflicting myself upon someone right now. it would be a sad thing to meet mr. right and eff him up cuz i knew i shouldnt be in a relationship at this point. i wish more people gave the rest of us that type of courtesy! but i digress. im okay with alone right now, and i recently met an adorable little shih tzu that made me want a puppy (plus she’s hypo-allergenic!)
i think for now, my degree, my job and my puppy will be sufficient.
@shatani,
it would be a sad thing to meet mr. right and eff him up cuz i knew i shouldnt be in a relationship at this point. i wish more people gave the rest of us that type of courtesy!
Good For You! It really is selfless. I often lament those who dive right back into the dating pool with gaping wounds. Don’t that know that’s gonna sting them and possibly infect others?
@shatani, i see that the type of black man i want does not want me, and im not ready to change (and not sure i will be)
PLEASE DONT EVER SAY THAT. Dont be self defeating. One thing I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older is that having confidence in yourself goes such a long way. When I was younger, when I would meet guys that were so-called what I was into at the time (cocky arrogant d*ckheads – well this pretty much hasn’t changed except for the d*ckhead part) I would get all crazy and caught up. Guys sense that and they take advantage. I’m not an advocate of playing games but you need to portray yourself how you want others to perceive you. If you come off with confidence and like you have plenty other options (and you dont sleep with them too soon), guys won’t be so fast to try to pull the okey doke on you. They should feel lucky to be in YOUR presence, not the other way around.
@BKSweetheart, yeah thats true. most dudes i know love themselves a confident and sure woman.
hell i used to tell chicks i knew to walk like a queen and they’d meet a king.
that was MAAAAAAAAAAD cheesy.
@shatani,
‘… i see that the type of black man i want does not want me, ‘ This type of man is it based on physical characteristics or does it go deeper than that. I only ask because, among my laundry list of men and women I love, I have this crazy attraction to men with tattoos. I’m talking full sleeves, full body suit tattoos. Sadly, with only 0.9% of said population is the feeling reciprocated. This made me very verklempt, as can be expected, until I realized that I didn’t like them with any future relationships scenarios in mind, but as eye candy. And even lovelier still, some of the attributes I ascribed to them based on their physical appearance: ie a phuck all kind of spirit, can be found with other men as well. It would be lovely and grand if the ‘other men’ developed a penchant for body art during the relationship, but even without it they are some awesomely awesome individuals. Which is a long winded way of saying, if those particular types of men you are currently attracted to isn’t working out, then figure out what that the attraction is based on, and then try and find those qualities in other types of guys, and I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
@ofloveandotherdemons,
well, on my short list right now: brilliant, funny, great smile. i mean, those are key for me….and ive met plenty of men who fit the bill, but either they are not interested in me, or im completely oblivious…
i dont think its the latter.
but i do see what youre getting at and i can definitely get on board….
@ofloveandotherdemons,
what is it about the body art that gets you gaga?
@The Champ,
I honestly can’t explain it. I think the art part of it is a big factor. It’s not all tatts that work for me. I can’t stand tribal tattoos or those stupid sun designs or butterfly tramp stamps on chicks, but really creative, well thought out and executed designs….Yummy. It’s like having a permanent, breathing, walking and talking painting to ogle. That’s the best explanation I can come up with. It’s similar to asking what about chicks derrières makes you so weepy? I’m sure it would be hard to put your finger on the exact reason.
@ofloveandotherdemons,
A woman after my own heart.
But like you, I realized that it was the “unconventional” part of things that attracted me… so I got me an “unconventional”, artsty dude minus the tattoos… Problem solved!
@ofloveandotherdemons,
yah i hav a similar issue..lol i hav a thing for dreadheads w/ tats who have a “rasta mentality” && at the same time i want a guy who is college educated and “marriage minded” (dnt ask me what that means) and i just can’t seem to find all those qualities in one guy. but the fact that at the moment i am pretty much limited to my college campus may have something to do with that.
@shatani,
i dont feel comfortable inflicting myself upon someone right now. it would be a sad thing to meet mr. right and eff him up cuz i knew i shouldnt be in a relationship at this point. i wish more people gave the rest of us that type of courtesy!
this is some real sh*t, shat
@shatani, i see that the type of black man i want does not want me…please describe this guy in todays terms…note I know tons of MBA’s with no job or jobs below an undergrad
That #5 “remember that you’re not entitled to sh*t” is TRUTH. SO many sistas out there THINK that they do and have done everything to perfection and don’t realize that even if you’re physically attractive, look good on paper, and know how to smile, that still doesn’t mean shyt. As blunt as it may sound, a fulfilling relationship isn’t guaranteed and it doesn’t matter what your job title is, how many degrees you have obtained, or how mean your shoe game is.
With that said, I hope Helena Andrews doesn’t continue with the “B*tch Is The New Black” sentiment because I don’t see how that will help the plight of sistas in her position at all.
@Monk,
‘…a fulfilling relationship isn’t guaranteed and it doesn’t matter what your job title is, how many degrees you have obtained, or how mean your shoe game is.’
They should teach that and Murphy’s law in elementary schools. It would save people alot of heart ache and soul searching later on in life.
@Monk,
I hope Helena Andrews doesn’t continue with the “B*tch Is The New Black” sentiment
to her credit, i think thats more of a catchy book title for her then actual personal creed. i could be mistaken though
@The Champ,
For the book? Maybe. Hollywood won’t let that fly as a movie title though.
@Monk,
I definitely agree that #5 is what clinches the deal. Our society in general teaches “entitlement” from the get-go, and it’s a set up for failure I think.
Heck, at work we’re sponsoring children’s whose parents can’t afford gifts throught the Giving tree. You won’t believe the gifts some of the children are asking. I am often wondering if your parents don’t have enough to afford gifts to you what don’t they teach you that asking for a bycicle, a XBOX machine is not the way to go? Those kids grow up to expect things to be handed to them.
Speaking of which, I need to go get De’Marcus (real name) his VTech laptop and Leapfrog scribble and write.
@Sula,
Speaking of that, I just saw something on the news yesterday about an organization that had given some children some toys and the ungrateful bastards had the nerve to want the more expensive shyt that they knew their parents couldn’t even afford.
*smh*
@Monk, With that said, I hope Helena Andrews doesn’t continue with the “B*tch Is The New Black” sentiment because I don’t see how that will help the plight of sistas in her position at all.
I’m with you, Monk. Based on the article alone it appears that she is embracing this ‘b*tch’ persona, by stating that it is a mask that protects her from being vulnerable. And yet, in the same breath she recognizes the fact that this same b*tchy attitude is what keeps coworkers and potential ‘nice’ suitors at bay. I don’t get it, it’s like there’s a microchip missing in her self-awareness. I witness this behavior among men and women of all races. It’s a sort of defiance, if you will. It’s like on one hand they’re saying “I figured out why I’m an a$shole.” and on the other hand they’re saying “I’m an as$hole, love me or leave me.” This is inherent problem among many educated folk who think they have arrived at self-awareness. You have to go one step farther than merely recognizing your vulnerabilities/triggers and personality disorders. You then have to find out how those vulnerabilities are working against your success and work towards self-improvement.
@Miss Patterson,
Precisely. Or as the Champ so eloquently put it, just “change”.
@Miss Patterson,
I mean yahh wearing a “mask” does prevent you from being vulnerable but it also prevents you from falling in love because love and vulnerability go hand in hand. You can’t love someone with a chained up heart.
@AnonyMiss,
MESSAGE!
I think that for successful women it is hard to let thier guard down and be open. That Type-A personality overshadows everything and is offputting enough to keep a relationship from beginning or continuing.
@Manny,
Can I just say (and I talk about this in my reply to the post) that sometimes, our career/success is not the only reason some women (of any race) are guarded. Sometimes its about our past we’ve been hurt by someone, or are afraid of getting hurt, etc. I think that’s what the chick in the article was talking about when she talks about masks. The easy explanation for why women are “b*tchy” is because they are so driven, focused, successful…a lot of us are just doing a really good job of hiding the real reasons we have a big thick wall up.
@Madame Zenobia,
Not to be cold, but dating is war we all are wounded.
@Stank-0, & AkShone & Sula -
You are all right. Everybody gets hurt and love can be difficult for everyone. All I’m saying is a lot of times when Black women have walls up its not just because we’re b*tches. And its not always in regards to love. I’ll use my time in the corporate world as an example, I went from one job in a media relations department where I went out of my way to be friendly and nice to those around me – the clients (who were athletes) and the reporters who I worked with. I was one of only two Blacks and we were both women. The other chick was cold, kept her head down and did her work. One day the boss (a white lady) calls me into the office and essentially says my niceness was being perceived as flirty and unprofessional. She berated me and basically said I was just in my job to find a man/athlete I could hook up with and would carry me. That was a horrible, hurtful experience. Because it was completely untrue, I didn’t do anymore or less interaction with the athletes/reporters than the males (all white except for one Asian.) I chose to leave the position a few months later. (And was followed by rumors that one of the players knocked me up which is why I left.) I then went to a job in the financial world where I didn’t do much interaction past what was necessary for my job. I was cordial to my colleagues, but not overly friendly. Again I had one Black colleague who was a woman and behaved the same way, though we became friends and roommates for awhile. The boss (a black man) at that job called both us in individually and together to tell us we were too mean and should try to “fit in” more with the group. The white men and women in our positions did less work and had less interactions with their teams, her team and mine consistently but up the highest numbers in the department but to my knowledge no one was ever called in and talked to. Both non-romantic instances that have had an effect on how I interact with male colleagues at the office and men I’m interested in outside of it.
What I’m trying to say is that saying that in discussions like these not to just assume that black women are b*tchy just because they are driven. There’s always a reason why people behave the way they do. Some people can have harsh experiences and move past them, some people it takes a little longer. I think Manny’s original point was valid, but if your interested in a black woman who seems off-putting just because she’s driven, I’d say dig a little deeper. Try to take some time to get to know her, because she might be guarded for reasons beyond the obvious.
@Madame Zenobia,
I hear you. I do hear you clearly. I am a black woman who works in a field with very few black women or women period. I have worked in companies with different cultures and I had to adapt each time. It’s what everybody does…at work.
We are talking about our personal lives… we have to learn to navigate between both environment and not equate one with the other. I am not my job and it shouldn’t define me. It might be a big part of me but it’s not me. So when not on the job, I should behave accordingly.
@Madame Zenobia,
“Sometimes its about our past we’ve been hurt by someone, or are afraid of getting hurt, etc.”
I understand what you’re saying here, but who hasn’t been hurt in relationships? I mean, anybody can rationalize their behavior.
@AkShone,
Exactly. Anybody can rationalize, but they rarely want to accept it as being a problem and act on changing it.
@Madame Zenobia,
Everybody’s been hurt at some point or the other. Life is a series of choices. We have to realize that the life we live (as adults) is the results of a myriad of decisions we made… whether we decided to get over the hurt and work through it, or we decided to stay inside it and pet it, it’s all a matter of decisions.
@Madame Zenobia,
you are so right… && its not just about having been hurt by men in previous romantic relationships… i know for me, my childhood and my relationship with my father have really fucked up my attitude towards guys/relationships. I want to take risks and open up to guys but its just so hard for me because of all the shit I watched my father do to my mom and all the shit he did to me for the 15 or 16 years he was in and out of my life. In some ways your father is like your first boyfriend… not tryna sound incestual (is that a word?) or anything, but its true. Your father is supposed to be the prototype of a typical man and my relationship with my father gave me the impression that men are really selfish and when things go bad they’d rather run than try and work things out. It also gave me the impression that men don’t have the ability to love unconditionally. And so consequently, love has become both my greatest fear and my deepest desire. Sucks to be me..lol.
Champ,
also, you scooped her on that “quarter life crisis” tip back in ’04. Sadly, I’m now 31 and still have not figured it all out yet! LOLBNR.
@tzerai,
Sadly, I’m now 31 and still have not figured it all out yet!
lol, (god-willing) i’ll be joining that club in two weeks
@The Champ,
Slides Champ his AARP card….
welcome, Champ.
“it always amuses me when women move to ultra-competitive, ultra-cutthroat, ultra superficial, and ultra cold-hearted cities and then are shocked when the dating game there is just as ultra-competitive, ultra-cutthroat, ultra-superficial, and ultra cold-hearted. not everyone is built to live in atlanta or new york or l.a. or d.c., and there’s nothing wrong with admitting that to yourself”
Yesssss. Big co-sign!
@Leila,
how does seattle compare to the cities i mentioned?
@The Champ,
Seattle is a man-made heaven for black girls (like moi) who are into chic and quirky and funny geeks… Lol!
I mean all those traditional male industries provide men galore (Boeing, Microsoft, every other IT company on earth…) and they are usually the good kind
@The Champ, I like Seattle men. I’ve been here for a year and some change, but they’re really smart, treat women well, and have a lot going for them. The ratio is in favor for women and 6 of my girls are engaged right now. My only gripe with the men is that they can be a little too laid-back but I’m getting more used to it.
@Leila,
k so if by the time im 25 i haven’t found a decent guy i’m moving to seattle! thanks for the tip! lol
If you define happiness sole basis of love, then I can understand the this list. However, a professionally driven woman, one with a MD, PhD, MBA, etc married to a blue collar work is in effect limiting her options in terms of her social and career capital. Most times I find that BW who don’t care about such things in their relationships to be the first to advise other BW to date down.
This may seem extremely shallow and superficial but when I was on the prowl, not only was I looking for a man with exceptional personality traits/raised in a 2-parent home but financial security was a fairly large factor in my level of interest, for my dreams and the life I would like to have, and what I’ve done with my life thus far to achieve that, If I had married a truck driver, everything would have been canceled out. Despite popular beliefs, there are men who are financially stable AND great life partners.
Black women are the only group that has to fell apologetic for having expectations, however as a whole we settle for the least, evidenced by life decisions we may find ourselves in.
@Ayanna,
My first reaction to your post was, in the words of a good friend of mine, ‘s**tph**kd**mn.’ However, the more I thought about it, the more I could see your point of view. I imagine (perhaps erroneously), from your post, that we are polar opposites in how we view life and make our way through this world. I mean, I list living in a self sustaining commune as one of my goals in life, and something tells me you don’t. At the crux of it though, we are all chasing after our own brand of happiness. I think a portion of your first sentence captured it perfectly, ‘If you define happiness….’ We all have our own version of the idyllic life and mate. Which I think is kinda cool. So, although I don’t agree or understand how 2parent homes, career and social capital translate to someone who’ll make you soup when you’re sick, or sit through a half hour gripe session about your coworkers, I’m glad that it does for someone out there.
@Ayanna,
I pretty much feel like WOMEN in general are treated like this for having expectations. Nowadays it does seem like having a single standard is like having one too many, depending on who’s whispering sweet nothings in ya ear. I can support being unapologetic within reason, but not being uncompromising on every little thing.
@bittersweet’s baby,
ive said this before too…definitely when women state a preference, it seems problematic. but specifically when its black women its trouble. a black woman can’t say she wants a white collar man without immediately being labeled a gold-digger, regardless of how much money she herself has….
@Ayanna,
To quote Drake: “Clap clap, bravo.”
Maybe it was growing up in DC; I’ve never run into guys who don’t appreciate or at least understand a woman who wants the finer things –not only wants them– but works for them.
Most of the guys I know (family and friends) come from 2 parent, well-to-do homes. If they don’t, they appreciate those family types and hope to have something similar when they settle down.
There’s nothing wrong with expectations; sometimes the folks telling you not to reach for what you want can’t fathom it because they aren’t in a position to attain what you believe you can/should.
That doesn’t mean that every successful man will have an MD, PhD, MBA or the like. Successful men come in various packages. Success is subjective, but you just have to keep your eyes and ears open for a man who is successful in all the important arenas: emotional maturity and strength, financial stability, ability to lead, trustworthy, faithful, etc.
Now, if it’s what you’re looking for, hopefully that man will have a few letters after his name.
@Lili,
“That doesn’t mean that every successful man will have an MD, PhD, MBA or the like. Successful men come in various packages. Success is subjective, but you just have to keep your eyes and ears open for a man who is successful in all the important arenas: emotional maturity and strength, financial stability, ability to lead, trustworthy, faithful, etc”
I like!!!
@Highfive,
The (somewhat) young folks got a little insight too.
@Lili, That doesn’t mean that every successful man will have an MD, PhD, MBA or the like. Successful men come in various packages. Success is subjective, but you just have to keep your eyes and ears open for a man who is successful in all the important arenas: emotional maturity and strength, financial stability, ability to lead, trustworthy, faithful, etc.
The truth
@Lili, I like the way you think.
@Ayanna,
I understand your point, however, I believe Black women tend to date men for what they have achieved at the moment and not their potential. No one is perfect, everyone does not have everything in place within a specific timeline. I know a women who got with her husband when he didn’t even have a car, now their production/management company is extremely lucrative and his top client is a certain Oscar winner. A good man comes in plenty of packages, you never know where people will go in life. It’s okay to date with specific standards, but relaxing them a bit and being supportive of someone with potential, at times is actually the path God laid for you to get all the things you wanted plus some.
By the way I went to high school with a guy who became a truck driver, he saved and invested, and eventually he bought several trucks of his own. He hired a crew of drivers, and now with the money coming in, at 33 he is on his way to retirement. He was blue collar, but he was smart, and a very hard worker. Sometimes you never know. **shrugs shoulders**
@TLC,
i understand the sentiment here, but ive also seen a lot of black women get caught up in some man’s unfulfilled potential. the dude who is always gonna be, gonna get, gonna do but aint been, got or done a damn thing.
potential is great, ambition is great, wanting something better is great….but have a (viable) plan. otherwise, i cant be bothered.
@shatani,
Of course when someone isn’t rising to the occasion a judgement call is necessary, but when you don’t give an otherwise good person the time of day because they aren’t Billie Dee handing you $20 and a Gardenia then I say lonely is your own fault.
@shatani, I agree, a man needs to have a plan. Being a “traditional” woman I am all for allowing the man to lead. But hell if I will follow a man who don’t even know where he is going himself.
@TLC,
congrats to your hs friend. That’s impressive, but he is an exception not the rule.
there two types of waves, there is social and there is monetary, they dont always mesh, and most blue collar’s no matter how much they earn carry the social outlook to hang with a woman who is professionally degreed.
But as I stated in my first post, if we have different relationship aspirations thats great. I just don’t understand why women around me judge or groan when I have a preference to date within my social construct.
btw..I really like what you have shared.
@TLC, face it most women just aint that patient these days..like can he own the company at 22-just when SHE gets her undergrad!!!
@Ayanna,
As a black man, I feel like if I’m bringing certain qualities to the table, then why settle for less than myself? So I can’t knock any sista for having standards and expectations. I say go for it!
However, I am curious to know your reasons for looking for a man raised in a two-parent home. Was this more of a preferred perk or a deal-breaker?
@SouthernCharm,
just a preferred perk. Not a deal breaker by any means. I just wanted someone who understood the structure of marriage. Yes, there are some bad 2-parent homes, maybe in that instance he learned what to do/what not to do for his future. Ya never know because there are exceptions.
I guess it was more of having a respect for the institution of marriage OR having a strong male influence in his life.
@Ayanna,
Understood. That makes sense.
@Ayanna,
o ok at first I was feeling some type of way about that 2-parent household thing b/c we don’t really have control over that but im deff w/ on the how respecting marriage/ good male role model thing. but i must add that growing up in a 2 parent household doesn’t guarantee either one of these traits. people grow up in 2 parent households where their parents clearly didnt love each other and where it was obvious they were better off separate or were just unhappy and these people are equally likely to be weary of marriage. you can also grow up in a household with a father who isn’t an ideal model of a husband/father.
@SouthernCharm,
“As a black man, I feel like if I’m bringing certain qualities to the table, then why settle for less than myself? So I can’t knock any sista for having standards and expectations. I say go for it!”
i agree 100 percent.
@Ayanna, I can’t knock your desires, they’re yours and to each his own. However, the truth is that after college, it does become more and more difficult to find those people out in the world unless you already belong to that world.
No dis, but it does sound shallow, but it would sound shallow if I said it. It defines happiness in terms of what club your mate can help you get into. I know a woman like this and I pretty much can’t stand her at this point in my life. She told me that she couldn’t date a friend of mine (who at that time had a Masters) who was a teacher b/c that was not the social circle she wanted to be apart of. She wanted a man who could help enhance her social status, and a teacher just couldn’t do it. Forget working for it together, she wants the key to that life b/c she felt she was entitled to it (she was a lawyer). Like I said, I can’t knock it, but that just seems like love is the afterthought. Or rather, you want the life and hope love comes with it.
I assume that you found the man you were looking for since you’re no longer on the prowl, but my homegirl? Not so much. Single b/c a lot of guys can sense that attitude from miles away.
@Panama Jackson,
I agree with your post. I wouldn’t be like your friend and turn down a teacher. I was basically saying I wouldn’t want to date a blue collar. For sake of argument, to me blue collar=no degree. I don’t think I’m shallow
@Ayanna,
However, a professionally driven woman, one with a MD, PhD, MBA, etc married to a blue collar work is in effect limiting her options in terms of her social and career capital.
what exactly do you mean by social and career capital?
also, there is an in-between, lol,
i mean, i see why you juxtaposed the phd and the truck driver to really make your point, but statements like that make it seem like those are the only options, that if you can’t find a mate with an md, you have to start dating garbage men (nttawwt) like their arent thousands of black male teachers and guidance counselors and small business men…guys who might not be making six figures but are educated, professional, and making enough to have a decent living.
@The Champ,
I don’t think I ever said I would dismiss the teacher, guidance counselor, etc. My post was not about a dude with 6 figures. I said no blue collar. I’m lost as to why you would assume that. I know there is an in-between…I agree with you.
@Ayanna,
I’m lost as to why you would assume that.
you’re right. you didnt say that. i just made a bit of a lazy inference after reading the social and career capital comment.
@The Champ,
” thousands of black male teachers and guidance counselors and small business men…guys who might not be making six figures but are educated, professional, and making enough to have a decent living.”
This is a segment of black male society that is hardly ever highlighted. I really think it’s due to the perpetual examples of the two extremes (phd or truck driver) that it has sort of conditioned a segment to only have expectations on that level.
@AkShone,
wow, until this very moment i didn’t even realize how often we [black people] do this when talking about black men… its the educated black man or the unemployed/underemployed BM. everything in between is made out to be nonexistent….
@AnonyMiss,
ooops i meant highly educated like PhD, lawyer, doctor, those types lol
@Ayanna,
Like you said everybody has their definitions of happiness, and should by all means stick to those definitions.
Now, they should also please stop complaining about not finding “it”… because if the numbers are right, they might not find “it” at all… ever. So they should just get on with the program and just learn to live with it… if they rather not and would prefer to be in fulfilling relationships, The Champ’s list is a good start.
@Ayanna, “financially stable” all I see is Helmer in the play by Isben “A Doll House”. How in adversity will he act? How do you glean how he will act in times of peril just cause he is financially stable? Furthermore its not about financially stable its about additional streams of revenue. With “financially stable” all I hear is COLD HARD CASH is the key to a womens’ heart.
@Ayanna, Truck drivers often make a lot of money. The plumber in your neighborhood probably is one of the wealthiest cats there. Blue collar cats often are very financially stable, and are not burdened with the student loans and job insecurity that their white collar counterparts have. There will always be a need for electricians.
@Legendary Dash,
Alot of ladies seem to miss these points…lol
@miss t-lee, I envy a couple of my friends who are carpenters and electricians. They owned their own homes by the age of 21 while I was still in college eating Ramen and sh*t.
@Legendary Dash,
My BFF’s husband is an electrician.
He makes long money…LMAO Been at it like 15 yrs now.
@Legendary Dash,
yahh my friends dad is a carpenter and he’s paid.
@Legendary Dash, Man I was just thinking the same thing. Most of them do the jobs that we all need to have done, but none of us want to do our own selves.
@Ayanna,
I completely understand your position && you’re so right that other groups of women don’t feel as pressured to lower their standards or aren’t made to feel guilty for wanting to “marry up” but as BW want to marry BM… you have to be realistic in your expectations…. not saying that BM aren’t capable of possessing all these traits you ask for but many don’t and there are a lot “successful” BW than BM… also i dont think its fair to ask for things people dont have any control over e.g. requiring that your potential partner having grown up in a two-parent household… again do you but realize that the less flexible you are in regards to who you will date/marry the less people you have to choose from and the more difficult it will be for you find someone.
Bitching about bitchy black women is the new crack. Black women go on and on and on and on and on about this. Hell, I do too.
The first point you brought up is the biggest problem Black women face. Even though standards are good and everyone should have some, Black women need to be realistic. Our lists are so long and so in-depth no dude is going to pay us any mind. And the actual prototypes of these lists may not want us in the first place.
We do need to date out, seriously. It’s so hard though!
Great entry. Even though it was 1,300 + words, it was much-needed. I wouldn’t know of Helena Andrews if ya’ll didn’t bring it up.
@Talia “The Soledad”,
what things on the typical list are unreasonable/unrealistic?
@shatani,
No lie – I knew a chick who has a list at least 60 things long. Its extremely specific, down to he has to have nice toes. She says she wrote it down so she can pray on it and God will send her exactly the right man. I haven’t seen her in over three years so I don’t know if that worked out for her or not….but some people do have some wild expectations.
@Madame Zenobia,
i can barely think of 60 things about my damn self, much less somebody else!
i have a couple of high maintenance friends who have very exacting standards about what they want in a man. things that i could take or leave. but i make it a point to never tell them that they are too picky or their standards are too high (in fact i do that with everyone) because really, who am i to say that? honestly, if you know that your laundry list of required attributes drastically limits your pool of applicants and youre willing to wait….well, then good on you! my problem arises when you have that long list that rules out nearly everyone on the planet, and then you wanna complain theres no good men/women out there. that, i will not tolerate….
@shatani, how about the bougie chick I dated. As New Yorker we both natives she is 36 and told me I was the first car-less guy she dated in ten years. In NYC you have nixed half if not more of your dating pool with this ridiculous request. She was one of these DIY who got away with it, her charm and looks worked in the fashion industry back in the Bernie Madoff economy. But she never raised her status beyond being a dilettante. Why would she? Dating a black dude with graphic design degree and a car!! Yet in the 3 yrs they dated she had nothing to show what he actually designed. Well I guess she saw something in his stuff. He knocked her up then cheated on her while pregnant. She is not a victim. He prolly did it cause her not knowing how to drive ass had to be taken everywhere in his car.
Last she never got not one degree in anything. Mags folded, fashion houses shut down or scaled down staff. She’s now a vaguely employed 36 yr old baby moms in the Stuy with no credentials…this is when keepin it boguie goes wrong!!!!
@Madame Zenobia,
I’m sorry. This entire comment made me LOL.
Straight out a fairytale.
@Lili,
but i thought that was The Secret! lol
(no, i never read it)
@Madame Zenobia, I actually don’ thave a problem with folks making these lists. The problem comes in not looking at it and saying, “okay, some of this is just ridiculous”, which i think is part of the point of this post.
folks forget to do some of the analysis on their thinking and why things end up the way they do.
@shatani,
I don’t know if having lists in of itself is unrealistic/unreasonable. It only gets so when the list runs 500 deep and you consider everything on that list as a crucial factor in deciding on a partner. We should have standards, and even things that are important enough to be deal breakers, but if you don’t give even a little leeway for surprises then I think you miss out. You might as well build an autobot to date, if you are not willing to deviate at all from that ideal man you’ve created in your head.
@Talia “The Soledad”,
Great entry. Even though it was 1,300 + words, it was much-needed. I wouldn’t know of Helena Andrews if ya’ll didn’t bring it up.
thanks and sh*t.
I’m just going to mail-order myself a man…from a third world nation, who speaks little to no English, with no ties or relations in this country, the intellect of a Nobel laureate and the emotional capacity of a saint. Preferably, he’ll inherit a huge chunk of money shortly after our wedding. I think that should take care of things.
@ofloveandotherdemons,
yes, independently wealthy is always a plus!
@ofloveandotherdemons, lol. I wish it worked like that but those men too have kicked the arranged marriage thing out the window because they want real love.
@Highfive, what are you talking about? i get emails about those guys at least 4 times a day, though they’re all Nigerian business men trying to send me millions.
@Panama Jackson,
i think i got one the other day from a gay nigerian man trying to send me millions and marry me.
Hahahahaha Lord have mercy on my dear African brothers. Those men (a very very small percentage by the way) usually catch the greedy folks (a lot of them have made a killing off the greedy lady/man that wants to inherit 50million from a person you do not know. I do not condone their fraudulent behavior though.
And nope, they don’t marry their victims either. If they do, the marriages last up until the green card has been processed :-p, I think ofloveandotherdemons would prefer a cornrow to that kind of setup.
@The Champ,
You know a friend of mine that is Nigerian told me that they are just waiting for the US to legalize same sex marriage so the men can marry their friends and become US citizens.
@ofloveandotherdemons,
I’m just going to mail-order myself a man…from a third world nation, who speaks little to no English, with no ties or relations in this country, the intellect of a Nobel laureate and the emotional capacity of a saint.
^It’ll be all fine until he start chillin’ with the U.S. brothers and then he’ll be talkin’ ’bout “You treat me like an an-i-mal and I want haaaaaalf!” Shout out Eddie Murphy! Sorry, I couldn’t resist:)
I actually identified with parts of this article. My cousin has this theory that Black folks raise our girls, and pamper our boys. Everybody knows the statistics and odds that Black men are up against, as such we got out of our way to make sure our males are protected. Girls are taught to be strong, not complain and keep things together. At least that’s how it is in our community/family.
And while b*tching about black women’s relationship issues may be the new black for some women it is a reality. I can’t explain how infuriating it is to be told that I have things “too together” or “that I should try to be a little nicer/not so intimidating.” I’ve put my heart and self out there before and I got gutted. I took it and worked my tail off to get where I am and now that I’m in a position where I’m ready to try again, those are the reactions I get? The first piece of advice you give is change. You’re right that isn’t a PC thing to say and a friend gave me the same advice at the beginning of the year. So I’ve softened up a little and met a couple of guys with so-so results but its uncomfortable. I like being assertive and confident, why does it seem every other gender/minority combo gets to be that EXCEPT Black women? Why can’t I be that?
In all of Sandra Bullock’s rom-com’s she is successful, quirky, sometimes b*tchy, but at the end of the hour and a half she gets the dude. (See Two Weeks Notice, The Proposal, Ms. Congeniality.) Morris Chestnut plays the same successful professional love-seeking brother role in all his movies and usually the Black woman he’s interested in does him wrong somehow but he finds it in his heart to forgive her and they get together (see Two Can Play that Game & the Brothers.) Hugh Grant makes all his money off being a charming, accent-having cad who doesn’t understand the importance of love until some woman swoopes in and shows him what love is (again: Two Weeks Notice, Bridget Jones Diary) Jennifer Lopez: Sassy, successful Latina who holds her on, meets a guy that she shouldn’t be with but they realize their love for each other at some point and wind up together (Monster-in-law, The Wedding Planner, Maid in Manhattan.) Do these actors do other things? Yep, but rom-coms are their bread and butter. I realize movies aren’t reality, but in the media EVERYBODY else but BW get to go through all the emotions of love openly.
I’m not saying everything this chick said rings true for me – I’ve heard of the winter boo thing before, but that seems like a waste of time to me. There are those of us who know that we want to find someone to share with and not just to be able to check off some box, and you’re definitely right nobody’s entitled to a happy ending, but at least people are addressing and conversing about this issue that some upwardly mobile Black women are running into relationship issues.
The end of the post says we need to find a way to kick our addiction to this convo but why? How many years have we spent on why Black men seemingly go for 2520 women when the achieve success? How many convos do we have about rap’s lyrics and how they portray women? About the “n” word, etc. Why can’t this be a topic for awhile? Saying women should stop b*tching about feels a little like when I was told “just be strong, don’t complain, things will work themselves out” by my mother and aunts. I don’t know how to wrap this up, I don’t know if I’m being too sensitive….so I’ll end with this:
Is this the 5 o’clock free crack giveaway?
@Madame Zenobia,
excellent points. when im feeling more coherent in the morning i may come back with more to say! lol…
@Madame Zenobia,
my mother has the same saying: “we love our sons but we raise our daughters”.
and yes this is the free crack giveaway. pipes on your left, rocks in the back lol.
@Madame Zenobia,
I like being assertive and confident, why does it seem every other gender/minority combo gets to be that EXCEPT Black women?
eh. i wouldnt say that. type-a type women of all colors and creeds have serious dating and relationship difficulty.
@Madame Zenobia,
Saying women should stop b*tching about feels a little like when I was told “just be strong, don’t complain, things will work themselves out” by my mother and aunts. I don’t know how to wrap this up, I don’t know if I’m being too sensitive….so I’ll end with this:
thats not what i meant.
i wasn’t saying that black women’s issues are unimportant, but that everybody loves discussing, reading about, and ridiculing the “single, professional, black bitch”, and i think its time that we started finding root causes and common ground instead of just talking sh*t about her
@The Champ,
i think its time that we started finding root causes and common ground instead of just talking sh*t about her
I see, sorry if I misunderstood that…I would definitely agree that we should dig deeper and find some solutions. And to your reply right above that. I’m not saying black women are the only ones with this issue, I’m just saying it often feels like we’re the ones who gets singled out for it.
@Madame Zenobia, your s is right. We do raise our girls and then pamper our sons. I’m convinced that one of the top reasons we have such poor male/female relations lies largely in our socialization of the genders. Honestly when you think about it, we don’t teach our kids how to become interdependent and relate to one another. We don’t teach our girls how to be girlfriends, wives, confidantes. And we do tend to shove down their throats to hold it in, get it together, don’t complain. And we certainly don’t teach our boys how to be leaders, boyfriends, husbands, supporters in the home. We tend to teach our boys that it’s a woman’s job to take care of him. It’s no wonder we all grow up and we’re running amuck.
@Madame Zenobia,
I like being assertive and confident
I don’t know if that’s really a problem. I think
or hear it often enoughthat I am assertive (make that very) and very confident. While it doesn’t work for certain dudes, it works for others… and so far I am good with the others.I don’t know if it’s useful to look at the problem this way… It can trivialize the debate to go the route of “Black men don’t like to deal with strong, independent black women”… I think this is more a myth than it is reality. Shoot, I am black African woman who is assertive with a big mouth… Odds would have been that I would find not a one dude to date. But I have dated mostly black males and am engaged to -wait for it- an African guy (gasp)! with my opinion-having, career-minded, ambitious self… And so are most of my friends (black women ones)…
I do believe that the psychose is greater than the actual problem and until we stop seeing the tree for the forest (or however the saying goes), we won’t get out of that rut.
@Sula,
Well if you’re Puffy the saying goes “if you can’t see the trees for the forest, cut those muhf*ckas down.” But that’s a whole ‘nother conversation.
I’ve been an equal opportunity dater and with the exception of my new young tender (which is in the beginning stages of possibly being something) the men who have been the most comfortable with my being assertive and confident have been non-African-American men and I can’t figure out why, and is that the tree or the forest? or should i just chop the whole thing down?
I would love to jump in this convo, but seeing as how I’m staying up all night with my head stuck in this pathophysiology book for the last time, I will sadly have to pass.
I’ll be reading your comments later today; this should be an interesting dialogue.
@Lili,
f*ck school. you’ll get all the education you’ll need on vsb this year
@The Champ,
^Love the Wu-Tang reference! “You know, VSB is for the children…”
lol
@The Champ,
LOL What are u gonna learn me Champ?
I identified with Helena’s perspective a bit too much. I have a lot of friends with advanced degrees who come from ivy schools and….yes the landscape seems hopeless. The problem is, I don’t REALLY feel that sorry for us, nor do i think anyone else truly needs to feel any empathy towards us. I mean…sure we are put on this earth to multiply, but I can’t be mad if we’re getting things done in other arenas. Who is really empathizing with Oprah or Condi because they’re husbandless and childless? NOBODY is like “Damn, that Oprah is on top of the world, but she ain’t sh*t cuz she never married that damned Steadman…” Anyone who does think that can miss me with their observations.
So, yeah. I don’t know how this whole love life thing for the overly educated sista is going to pan out, but I’m over the notion of thinking I can only date “up” within the black race, and if it doesn’t happen….something is wrong with me.
@Liz, my three closest friends have advanced degrees but they don’t use those degrees to identify them. I think the problem is when a woman is asked about who she is it’s those degrees that you get.
As for Oprah and Condi, you don’t hear them griping about not being able to get a man. I am of the belief that not every woman wants a man. The matter is with the women that verbalize the want yet is their own enemy or blocker.
@Raqi,
…truth.
@Raqi,
Word. Life.
@Liz,
I agree. Oprah appears to be happy with herself, and seems to be happy helping other people. Not only black women, but people in general, need to be happy doing themselves, fulfilling their purpose(s), or whatever makes you happy. You shouldn’t feel the need to live up to whatever expectations society, a book, or some movie suggests you should live up to.
Sometimes I feel that this issue of Helena’s perspective is more hysteria than an epidemic.
@SouthernCharm, I agree re: hysteria. Let’s hope the PR around her work(s) can move beyond the hysteria.
@SouthernCharm,
Definitely hysteria. It’s like the urban myth of no good black man out there. I don’t buy it.
@SouthernCharm,
Sometimes I feel that this issue of Helena’s perspective is more hysteria than an epidemic.
And therein lies the truth.
@Liz, I wonder if any of these women actually want pity. Even when reading the article I didn’t get that sense so much as a “its hard out here” and wondering why they can’t find the men they’re lookign for.
Though most of the younger women that seem to talk about this come from this place of men are just trifling and thats why it aint happening. Not all, but some do anyway.
@Liz,
Who is really empathizing with Oprah or Condi because they’re husbandless and childless? NOBODY is like “Damn, that Oprah is on top of the world, but she ain’t sh*t cuz she never married that damned Steadman…”
good point lizzard
@Liz: “Who is really empathizing with Oprah or Condi because they’re husbandless and childless? NOBODY is like “Damn, that Oprah is on top of the world, but she ain’t sh*t cuz she never married that damned Steadman…”
…they might not be empathizing, per se, but they are sho nuff judging. I really think that’s one of the major sources of the whole “Oprah is clearly gay” line of discussion. Not to mention why we are periodically assaulted (or used to be, anyway) in the checkout line with annoying tabloid articles about how she is so upset that Steadman won’t marry her, etc.
Otherwise, I agree. I guess I’m kinda of Helena’s demographic, as well, and I couldn’t even bring myself to read about her when I came across the article the other day. I am SO TIRED of that discussion–or at least the way it gets circumvented into a
bitchfestdiscussion of the “single professional overlyeducated superindependent black b*itch who can get everything but a man.” And I’m really kinda wary of the Post jumping on this discussion–I’m skeptical that this will be viewed as anything more than yet another example of black dysfunction and pathology. When has that ever been helpful?@miss kate, dangit! No more fancy editin’ for me. Ignore the strikeouts.
@miss kate, I hear you. I think people DO judge The Oprahs and Condis and the lesbian comments begin to come out the woodwork (I have heard the same about Condi)…and to some extent my chronic singledom makes me wonder if my family thinks I might be a lesbian (lol) because I didn’t marry or have kids (out of wedlock) in my 20s. It’s a tough place to be in, but I think at the end of the day, people aren’t thinking an Oprah or a Condi failed at Life because they went the career route and not the I Gotta Have It All (or the same ole story) route.
I suspect the WaPo piece was a bit media-whoring and pandering with the same story we hear about: the lonely angry black woman. I hope Helena’s book (and film) will avoid being pigeonholed into this stereotype moving forward.
@Liz,
Ok this was a depature from popular VSS thought. Smart sistas everywhere will look at you like your enightened ass is crazy. Going against groupthink? They’re gonna take your card. Suspend your priveleges. You just crashed the pity party and upstaged errrbody on some ol, i aint like yall whiney chicks. Then you had the nerve to bring Oprah and Condi into it. BLASPHEMOUS! MUTINY they’ll cry!
@Triple Crown ^^^ ^^^ ^^^, LOLOL. I mean it sucks to come to this realization, but most chicks know deep down a lot of their hard work comes at a price of some sort. I think women of ANY color know this, but for Black women we especially learned this early on. You can’t be on the success track and then look backwards and be mystified about what happened. Our actions are very deliberate in order to get where we are.
That is, until Michelle Obama came up on the scene. Michelle has me rethinking the Oprah model altogether.
@Liz, Don’t let Michelle make you rethink. Remember, she has history with Barack. Neither one of them were where they are today when they met, dated, and eventually married. She wasn’t Michelle with the advanced degrees and high paying hospital job and then met Barack. They’re the old school model–high school/college sweethearts.
@Hershey’s Kiss, Not really. they were both already done with theri ivy undergrad degrees, and Michelle was done with Harvard Law School. That being said, they were clearly on the success track before they met each other. Unless she was a complete tool, or ready to be a housewife 24/7, Michelle was most likely going to end up with a good job, even if she didn’t have it at the time of meeting Barack.
@Liz,
Yah, the way I see it, you kind of have to figure out what’s more important to you… having a career or having a family. Not to say you can’t have both… i mean clearly you can but if you want to really be up there and make bank you have to realize dedicating a lot of time towards your career = less time for your personal life.. && that’s cool if you’re content with that but if you know you’re someone who really wants to get married and have children then you have to be realistic and realize that there’s only so much time in one day and if you spend 20 out of 24 hours on the job that leaves you little time to raise a family…. my goal is to find a balance between my career and my personal life because i want both but i know i can’t expect to be making as much money as oprah and also be mother of the year… and for me personally the latter is more important but to each his own. i just think some people are being unrealistic when want to be millionaires and also have a fairytale-like love life.
@AnonyMiss, I hear you, it’s definitely a balance. I think Michelle Obama does it well, but most people don’t know or forget that for like 7 years, Barack was not living at home fulltime, and their marriage was so not perfect. So, even though she was a good mom and had a good job, her marriage was a bit unfun.
So I’m not sure what irked me most about Helena… her stereotype perpetuating title, how pretentious she comes across (because she obviously is) in the article or the fact that she brought her dog into an eatery — pet friendly my azz… I guess she basically, she irked the shiii outta me cuz she seems to be the you know what she purports to be.
I can rock with most of the champ’s how to guide with the exception of #s 4 and 7. Re #4: When observing most of the chicks who keep a heavy rotation or stay on some dude’s rotation, I’ve found a commond denominator. They’re way more hoey-er than me! That’s why their dance card stays full. I’ve no desire to trade my ample charms for a few drinks, a free meal or a ride on/with someone of questionable character.*
Re #7: One of the main ingredients of relationships is that they require a willingness to work. This is not to be confused with willingness to work on someone until you’ve bent them to your will, redesigned most of their character, edited out half of their friends and revamped nearly their entire wardrobe. I don’t believe you can create your perfect complement, I think the person just is… However, lots of ladies are getting to that point, where they’re accepting dudes on the surface & sneakily or not so sneakily tryna morph them into whomever they really wanna roll with. Yet I’ve seen cats stand idly by and endure the process, so what do I know besides me know want him.
{Questionable if they were happy cakin’ hoey me.}
@bittersweet’s baby,
Oh yeah, the other thing that peeved me about Helena was that at 29, she seems to feel hoodwinked by The Cosby Show. How is she surprised that it may have been everyone’s favorite sitcom but not everyone’s reality?
@bittersweet’s baby,
Hoodwinked, bamboozled, led astray…lmao
I noticed that point when I watched the vid yesterday. I was like wow, really? You do realize that was a sitcom right?
@miss t-lee,
DUDE- Okay, I know a guy JUST like this…an old co-worker. He would turn to me and say “There is no woman out there like Claire Huxtable. If I find her…oh man.” –> As if I was supposed to get mad or offended. I was like “Wait, are you really basing the type of woman you want off a FICTIONAL CHARACTER? The type of marriage you want off a SITCOM?” He thought he was getting under my skin, but I (and everyone else) just felt bad for him because as intelligent as the brotha is, he has already lost if he expects a woman or his future relationship to live up to a television show.
I was really disturbed that he seriously wanted to base his woman and future relationship off a show created by a comedian. Did he not have any positive, real figures in his life who could serve as a healthy example of a good marriage?
Now that I think about it, he kind of resented me…he would refer to me as a “Huxtable” (couldn’t explain that if I tried)…Yea. That dude had a warped view on things.
And I had turned him down a few months before all that, so I guess that was part of it too.
Yea. He’s the male version of the women described in that article. Before the advanced degrees and all that.
@Lili,
“Did he not have any positive, real figures in his life who could serve as a healthy example of a good marriage? ”
Claire Huxtable huh? LMAO!!! Wow, what a piece of work.
People buying into all these sitcoms and movies like they are gospel. You’re setting yourself up for failure everytime. Get out of the house more often and live.
@bittersweet’s baby,
they’re accepting dudes on the surface & sneakily or not so sneakily tryna morph them into whomever they really wanna roll with. Yet I’ve seen cats stand idly by and endure the process, so what do I know besides me know want him.
This.
This happened to my boy. He fell behind during undergrad and didn’t graduate on time. She pounced, isolated him, and now, I don’t even know who this cat is. His name is even different.
SMH.
@Shay,
OMG! Not a new name?!!? Super sad…
@Shay,
She probably carries his nutz around in her purse, and he has to ask to see them.
What part of the game is that?!?
@miss t-lee,
lmao!
@bittersweet’s baby,
Your response to #7 is heartfelt especially with me having lived through it. Every woman I recall dating seriously had that sh*t eating grin & smugness behind their poker face that reads: I can change him into what I want him to be. Once , after breaking up, I can remember a gf volunteering, that she wouldnt tell me anything she thought would make me a better me, because she did not want to potentially make me better for someone else. This line of thinking presupposes that her judgement and likes are what the next chicks desires are. Maybe they were but somehow it all rubbed me wrong.
@Triple Crown ^^^ ^^^ ^^^,
Interestingly enough, this very same phenomenon occurred after my September breakup!
@Caballeroso and Triple Crown, Don’t think about it too hard… sometimes we just like to f*ck wit ya’ll.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Dont you mean fix y’all, not “f*ck wit ya’ll?” As if? The ASPCA says I should get ya’ll neutered. Juuuuuust f*cking wit ya’ll.
@Triple Crown, Oh so you wanna neuter us cuz you don’t got your own ballz?… stop being so emotional!- sheesh… And, I meant what you read! fuk wit deez!
@Triple Crown, I really wanted to put f* wit deez but it wouldn’t let me change it time… dammit!- carry on!
@Triple, Awwww that wasn’t very nice… I’m sorry *Kanye shrugs*
Hmm,
A self-proclaimed “bytch” can’t find a guy? I’m so surpirsed.
The thing I find most amusing in the article is that she doesn’t expound on any other positive(personaility) traits she has outside of her professional career that would be attractive to men. Well, at least she’s gonna (hopefully) get paid off this.
@DeuceBravado,
A couple of years ago I was in like the sixth or seventh month with one of my ex’s when she proudly proclaimed herself to be a “selfish b!tch”. In shock and disbelief, I still managed to hang in for another week or so.
Two things shocked me: 1) One, like you said, how can a woman expect to find a good man when she proudly references herself as a b!tch? 2) Why I hung in there for another week or so…oh yeah I remember. *singing* the power of the p-u-…..
@DeuceBravado,
EXACTLY. That’s my question – What else are you bringing to the table?
Not that it should be solely on the woman of the household to cook, but most guys I know love to eat and if you’re not willingly to do that a few times a week because you’re preoccupied with your career and so forth, how desireable does that make you? If you’re putting your career over being a wife and mother, a lot of men are going to have a problem with that. That may sound a bit chauvinistic but it’s truth. Where’s the supportive wife when the man comes home and all you have to offer is how YOUR day was?
And yes, we understand that you work as well, but there are certain attributes and qualities that men look for in choosing a mate/wife besides what advanced degrees she may have and who her employer is.
In addition, that whole “bytch fasade” is very hindering. NO man wants that. I understand that you was hurt before and yada yada yada, but carrying that baggage to every potential suitor after that is very detrimental if you expect someone to wife you up.
Of course men have our issues as well, but since we’re referring to what the professional black woman issues are, that’s what I’m addressing.
@Monk, sorry this is wack copout. Some men are fine with (and love!) women who don’t cook. My dad being one of them. My grandmother was a horrible cook when she first married my grandpa (diff side of the fam, btw). I don’t know why people think the ability to cook and having a career are mutually exclusive either. I know plenty of women without banging careers who don’t know how to cook, and vice versa. I know I have a great skill in cooking, but I just don’t do it often because my career takes up a lot of my time right now. It sounds like you’re operating under some stereotypes and assumptions versus some actual real people.
@Liz,
Being able or willing to cook for your man is just one example of certain attributes that a woman may bring to the table that a man may be looking for. There’s much more than just having a bangin’ career that’s going to attract the man you want to you.
@Monk, I’m not sure having a banging career is something women do to get or attract a man (even though people assume this all the time). Make no mistake, I didn’t put myself through all this over-achievement for man-catching purposes. if anything, it’s just to bide the time and make sure I have a roof over my head and get the things I want out of life (travel, some gadgets….that’s all I really need).
@Liz,
hmm well it isn’t of much use to your family if you’re an amazing chef but have no time to cook for them now is it? I can understand a man wanting a wife that has time to be a mother and wife and I can also understand a woman wanting to be more than just those two roles.
@AnonyMiss, Usually the men who come out the woodwork about cooking aren’t talking about time to cook, but knowing HOW to cook. You’re right, it’s useless if you don’t do it often, but somehow these men never seem to complain about that.
@DeuceBravado, I have been with my husband for eight years and I can state that if she has no positive traits outside of her professional career she will never make it in a relationship.
Corporate America is just one big ole cut-throat, back stabbing crab barrel, which is a deadly poison to a success relationship. Relationships take caring, compromise and sacrifice. They don’t make degrees that cover that.
@Raqi,
keyword=sacrifice.
unfortunately, i think the way our society runs, women are expected to make more sacrifices than men but some of the sacrifices women have to make are pretty relevant and actually make sense. i think there is a reason women bear children and men don’t.
@DeuceBravado,
A self-proclaimed “bytch” can’t find a guy? I’m so surpirsed
I didn’t even bother reading the article… The title alone turned me off.
I also think that sistas can sometimes, as I call it, “box themselves out”. meaning you start with a wide pool of applicants and start diminshing the number by adding more stipulations (he should have ________ career/car/background/plan etc. and by the time you’re done, there is only a few squares left. I also think this has something to do with what lingers over any (maybe just mine) person’s conscious when futhering education/getting: “bringing up the race”. this can lead to a lot of classist/elitist thinking when it comes to relationships. are all of your dealmakers/brakers soley about credentials? then no wonder dating is difficult. i mean really, who cares if he has a mba but is an aszhole?
as far a dating out goes: do it. why the fcuk not? i mean i never thought i would have a 2520 boo, but here I am. give it a whirl because it can’t be anymore traumatizing then whatever it is you’re doing now lol.
@VeronicaCorningstoneD,
Gotta say, one of my best friends has been having great luck in the past year dating 2520 men. Very successful, gentlemanly, romantic, decent dudes. And she’s happy and in love with the latest one. Jewish, at that. He is a few yrs older though…but I usually preferred older guys myself.
She said to try it one of these days. I guess if I had a reason to be dating new guys, I would give it a shot. Haven’t seen any bad results from anyone I know.
@Lili,
my boo is 5 years older than me and Jewish! what a coincidence!
@VeronicaCorningstoneD,
You are sounding very familiar…
@VeronicaCorningstoneD,
I’m with you on this, it really isn’t that big a deal. I go to a tiny PWI, what would I look like expecting at least one of the ten black guys at my school to have the characteristics that I prefer in a man? That chance is SLIM. I’d much rather pick from a ocean than a pond. Yeah, you’re going to meet some 2520 fools, but foolishness comes in every color. I’m not about to let the “idea” of being approached by a lame 2520 discourage and push away every single one.
Hats off! Great points.
@Ange,
keep your hat on, its raining here
I’ll add on the following now and tackle it again at high noon.
Maybe it’s a good idea not to:
-be so overbearing
-read off your laundry list of zoning laws
-
be a d*ck teaseYou take away a man’s chance to be himself around you and win you over.
BTW, why the changeover from Georgia to Arial?
@Stuff Ghetto People Like,
BTW, why the changeover from Georgia to Arial?
blame it on the boobs
Hmm, I’m only single due to being busy or lazy. Like when I know I have a year deployment coming up (this was May 2008) it seems like a good time to step out the dating pool.
I didn’t seriously date because I had alot of stuff going but if I meet someone of interest then I will. I’m willingly to adapt my schedule if the person is worthwhile. In most cases I know it’s not going to go anywhere but that’s because of me (read: military career) but perhaps it will.
There seems to be men out there aplenty…and I have dated 2520s in the past but I’m an equal opportunity dater.
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
it seems like the women i know who are in the military in some form don’t have these issues as much. same with the athletes
@The Champ,
I hate to say this but it’s probably because people in the military get married and divorced so often AND move that they know there isn’t a lack of people out there LOL
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
There seems to be men out there aplenty…
And that’s all I am saying. Where are those women looking and they don’t see great “quality” men with all their required credentials *cough*landry list*cough*?
@Sula,
Umm…I actually have a small list of preferences…all very reasonable I think. The one I have the most difficulty with is finding me with intellectual curiosity and interest in the world (really politics LOL). Not difficult at all to find in like-minded circles on the net…a bit more difficult in regular life.
@The Champ – GREAT POST. Now you’ve really given me some meat and potatoes to dig into at work later today (Woke up at 4:30 this morn and couldn’t sleep…. ugh)
Re #1 – CHANGE. I can see how some people would just balk at this statement. And if you would have said this to me a few years ago, I would have done the same (“UH UH ninja, I can’t be changin for no dude, if they can’t accept me for who I am then f*ck em”) But this is so true. I used to be that sweet, sensitive chick but all I ever went after were cocky arrogant alpha male types but had no luck. But I realized in order get an alpha male, II had to be just as seemingly cocky and nonchalant as they were. This is not to be mistaken as coming off like a bitch though. There’s a difference. I’m still that sweet and sensitive girl on the inside but I don’t let em see that until they prove themselves worthy (i.e. theyre serious and not just f*cking around). Until then, I smile and be cordial and charming all the while thinking, “shiiiit you aint nobody special ninja, heard it all before”
Re #4 – This is true to a certain extent but you must stay true to yourself at the same time. Don’t try to be something that you’re not because men will also be able to see right through that. I went through a phase like this when I first moved to NYC with this one chick I was hanging with. She never had a shortage of men and she seemingly had so much “swag” (I don’t care for that word) But I soon realized the reason why she never had a shortage of men was because she was a WHORE
Re #6 – This was my experience moving to ny. After not having much luck with guys my first year here, I soon realized I would have to step up my game if I was going to get the kind of guy I really wanted. So I buckled down at work so I could get my money right and I — wait for it —- hit up that GYM *gasp* (yeah I said it). Made such a huge difference. Not just in my appearance but in my overall confidence in myself and being able to engage with men and not feel like I always have to be super nice and funny and subervient to make up for being the cute fat chick. Its a competitive city.. you got all this skinny 2520 anorexic biches running around all over the place, I had to be real with myself…
#7 – This is also something I’ve recently learned. I think too often women have this ideal of being whisked away by Prince Charming and living this luxury carefree pampered life. Women need to know how to please their man as well. Whether it be chexually, cooking up a few meals, giving him a massage, stroking his ego from time to time… whatever he needs to feel appreciated. Just like women want to feel appreciated, men do as well.
@BKSweetheart,
I luv all your points!!
@BKSweetheart,
cooking up a few meals,…stroking his ego from time to time
Those two things right there are where I hear a lot of women get stumped. LOL
What’s wrong with cooking for your man? Heck you got to eat too. Just throw an extra piece of chicken in the pan for him.
And all men want to feel wanted and needed. They need that ego stroked more times than they do their manpiece. You can sex a man coming and going…but emotionally and mentally emasculate and talk down to him and see how fast he walks out the door or step out on you.
@Raqi, I don’t think it’s the idea of cooking per se that women have a problem with. I think it’s the notion that as a woman I’m the only one who is supposed to cook. As you said, I like to eat too. I like home cooked meals too. If we’re in a relationship, why can’t you cook too. At times it can start to feel like you’re being reduced to the role of cook simply because you’re a woman. I think that’s the notion that women resent.
@Raqi, “You can sex a man coming and going…but emotionally and mentally emasculate and talk down to him and see how fast he walks out the door or step out on you.”
I co-sign 100% on this statement. And yet, I still don’t get it when dudes stick around for the 24/7 emasculation treatment. I don’t know if these men love b*tches, or they dig being humiliated because it reminds them of the relationship they had with their overbearing mother or what. It just makes no sense. And I’ve witnessed this dynamic waaay too many times. I’m beginning to wonder, are b*tches in this season like round-toed shoes?
@BKSweetheart,
Now you’ve really given me some meat
if i had a dollar…
@The Champ, Ewwwww LOL.
@BKSweetheart,
Now that’s real!
D*MN IT I COSIGN THIS WHOLE POST!!! Good F’n job Champ!!
And it really applies to both women and men. Get off your own sack for long enough to realize that it smells like sweat and baby powder just like the rest. Your hard work is commendable, your degrees are impressive, your drive to succeed in your career is respectable. But what does any of that have to do with romance?
Stop using the same resume on a date that you used in the job interview. Because if thats really all you got then you deserve to be lonely.
@BigBuck,
I mean…I was gonna type up something, but I think I might just co-sign this.
@miss t-lee,
Real talk. Big Buck said it all.
@BigBuck, LOL. Yeah some people think their crap don’t stink because it’s wrapped in a couple of degrees.
The funny thing is degrees are a dime a dozen now. Online degrees are where many are getting their “status” these days.
@Raqi, Ivy degrees aren’t and I think to some extent a lot of people are missing her point with that.
@Liz, what do you mean? you think her point is that she’s above the fray with the Ivy degree and thats her problem, trying to find a man of similar pedigree??
@Panama Jackson, I mean for Black women (and people in general) it takes a certain type of dedication to be and hang in the Ivy ranks. The higher up you go in any arena as a Black person the more taxing it is on your psyche. You gotta deal with 2520s and their general BS, you gotta deal with there being less and less black people (and Pple of color in general) where you’re at (which might be the other type of loneliness helena speaks of), you have to work twice as hard to be seen as equal WHEN YOU’RE ALREADY equal (did we NOT all go to the same ivy schools? but 2520 over there is treating me like we didn’t?). I think people of ivy mass degrees go through something different (socially) than people who don’t have ivy degrees. The set of expectations are different, from all sides. Sure, there’s overlap, but still something unique about this place. *kanye shrug*
@BigBuck,
Stop using the same resume on a date that you used in the job interview. Because if thats really all you got then you deserve to be lonely.
@bittersweet’s baby, yeah, those aren’t shots fired, those are missiles fired!
@BigBuck,
welcome and back and sh*t.
@The Champ,
Apprecianate ya!
And by the way, any woman here having trouble in the men department should read the book WHY MEN LOVE BITCHES – it changed my LIFE. Dead serious!! Yeah yeah yeah, I already hear the collective groan of the men in this forum.. but the term “bitch” does not describe a woman being bitchy, unapproachable, etc. It’s actually the opposite – a bitch is smart, witty, charming, and confident on the outside but doesn’t allow herself to be disrespected or shortchanged by men. She knows her worth and what shes capable of and refuses to lower her standards for someone who doesn’t appreciate her.
@BKSweetheart,
I wish I would have wrote that book…lol
I’m shaking my head at the title though.
Why does that have to be “b*tch” behavior? Ain’t nothing b*tchy about knowing what you want and refusing to accept any ol’ kind of nonsense.
I call that smart.
@BKSweetheart,
Correction ~ A B!tch is a B!tch. NWA; circa ’89.
@bittersweet’s baby, @miss t-lee
I know I know, the title is misleading. But that’s the point. If you read the book you would understand what the author means. It’s not about being a “b*tch” in the sense that most people think – she uses the term moreso in an empowering way. Women are socialized from birth to be delicate and emotional and nurturing (not that this is inherently a bad thing) but basically were taught to be doormats. Thus were often taken advantage of. This book discusses common mistakes women make often during the “courting” phase of a relationship. Because you set the tone from the door. If a guy gets the idea that you’re not down for any tomfoolery or disrespect from the door, he’s going to act accordingly. For example, say you just started going out with this guy and you call him (which you shouldn’t do that much anyways, he should call you) and he doesn’t answer but responds an hour later with a text like “whussup?” That’s BULLSH*T – do not respond and he should be x’ed immediately or at least put on the backburner for a few days until he calls you. If he doesn’t call, eff em. Simple as that. But take a scenario like that and a lot of women will just take it and go back and forth texting with this jerk that doesn’t even have the decency to call you. That sets a standard right there and now that guy knows he has the upper hand and not only are you desperate but you’ll take anything.
DISCLAIMER – I feel the word “b*tch” gets a bad rap because its a term men use to denigrate, devalue or “de-feminize” women when in most cases they’re using it because they feel threatened when a woman is assertive and doesn’t play by their rules
@BKSweetheart,
” Because you set the tone from the door. If a guy gets the idea that you’re not down for any tomfoolery or disrespect from the door, he’s going to act accordingly.”
Oh…I understand the title. I’m just saying I wish I would’ve wrote that book, because this is isht I do already. I don’t feel it’s b*tchy behavior, you’re just letting people know what you will and won’t go for.
Then again, I’m not a nice person…lmao
I’m glad the book helped you out.
@BKSweetheart, although as a disclaimer to the above scenario – this wouldn’t apply if you called him while he was at work, out of town, etc – even still, the one word text response when you first starting dating someone is just pure laziness. Cause if they’re truly unable to speak at the moment and they’re into you, they’ll say “hey im in a meeting, call you later” or something to that effect
@BKSweetheart, in todays work culture you’re a dead worker even if answering the phone during a meeting. He should return your call at some point but if I am getting 50K for a video and we have a pre production meeting and She calls-straight to VM, she dont like it fine.
she’s (the helena doppelgangers) probably just not attractive enough to the men she’s most attracted to
Champ a statement very similar to that one there is something that I have repeated to many woman. I had to learn it myself and I try to share it with others. So many women are missing out on what could possibly be great successful relationships because they are waiting for men that are not wanting them. They are just not attractive to the men they are attracted to. And by attractive I mean the whole package. Not just looks.
Every day I am thankful for all those the helena doppelgangers who felt my husband was not hiphop enough, looked too goofy in his black rimmed Roger Thomas glasses that he wears when his contacts become uncomfortable, was too skinny (I put 20 lbs. on him feeding him every day in less than a year), and was way too traditional for the modern day woman. I thank all of them for leaving him available for me. I’ve got a wonderful husband. He is very handsome, well educated, intelligent, funny, a great lover, an excellent provider and a tried and true friend.
He is quite moody at times, but hey, putting up with his moodiness is a small price to pay to have this great man in my life.
Thank you, thank you, thank you to all those Higher Ups that were not willing to get with his plan.
@Raqi,
lol, this entire comment just gave me a cavity.
I read this article yesterday over at SBM. I watched the video as well, and IDK, folks need to realize that your accomplishments and degrees don’t mean jack in the love department. Especially if you’re subscribing to the notion of “winter boos” and what not. Points #4 and #5 are the truth.
@miss t-lee, my husband and his brother, who are both well educated and handsome, were telling one of their female cousins that the biggest mistakes some women make is when they allow their success and degrees to make them think more highly of themselves than they ought to.
It’s not the success that ruins the person, it’s their attitude behind it.
@Raqi,
I could not agree with your comment more. Especially the last sentence.
@Raqi,
I think SBM had a post about this a while back. While theirs was more along the line of women who think that degrees make them more of a catch, I think that you’ve more accurately described the situation: too many women with degrees think that this somehow makes them inherently highly qualified partners. There are too many degreed Black men with baggage for me to accept that degrees make someone of either sex inherently a “good catch.”
@Helagramki, Yeah you can all the extras but the personality of a cold rock. The extras are good but don’t let it define you.
Relationships take work and if you love and give more thought to your status and your extras more than your mate you are doomed to fail at relationships.
@Helagramki, No he wrote one yesterday about Helena Andrews and this whole phenomenon. It got quite heated over there too.
@Hershey’s Kiss,
I should clarify. I was referring to raqi’s statement from her husband and his brother that “some women … allow their success and degrees to make them think more highly of themselves than they ought to” and SBM’s post “Degrees don’t make you sexy miss … Sorry.”
@miss t-lee,
i swear we’ve been separated at birth!!! lol
@Smiley Face,
*giggling*
Really chick,I see we normally agree on more points that a little bit.
Don’t know how much I can add to this…maybe I’m lucky I have such a large family and I’ve been taught all of this before I was out of high school by watching them “takin the bumps and the bruises of all the things of a two time loser.”
Life has never been a competition for me…all I can do is live it.
Success is about number 6 of 7 of my list of things that make me happy and it’s (success) never been the total sum of me. I’ve earned my degrees..yay but all they do is sit on a wall somewhere…they are not who I am.
I’m cool with being happy and I’ve never cared about what color collar you had..one of my best relationships was with a bus driver…
Like someone said up thread azzholery knows no creed or color. You don’t have to settle your wants but you need to realize that your wants may not be where you are looking for them to be.
@Smiley Face,
“I’m cool with being happy and I’ve never cared about what color collar you had”
Exactly.
@Smiley Face, I concur!
Success is relative to every individuals journey and life path…..
@OrangeStar616,
agreed. i don’t know why so many people equate success with making a lot of money. there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be able to buy nice things but don’t think that a large amount of money is automatically going to lead to happiness.
@Smiley Face, “I’ve earned my degrees..yay but all they do is sit on a wall somewhere…they are not who I am.
I’m cool with being happy and I’ve never cared about what color collar you had.”
^Cosign! And can people stop ASSuming that because I have “all that” I must put a high value on it? You simply have _______ (fill in material/educational/possession)…nothing more and nothing less.
@Smiley Face,
Pressing the “Like” button!
Champ, I read your post just after midnight and woke up thinking about it, then read how several other blogs handled the story and the many comments. You handled it very well and with great sensitivity, and I gave you a shout out for this in a post I wrote this morning.
I’m ticked off and have a different take on the book title and highly plausible backstory, which I haven’t seen addressed elsewhere or I wouldn’t have bothered writing a post on it. Y’all come by if you get time to read it, and your comments would be appreciated.
Link: Bitch Is The New Black? No, Subliminal Sexism & Racism Is The New Black
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
Fab read. Doubt most of the mainstream will wanna delve that far past the surface, tho I’ll stay hopeful. It’s such a pity cuz she’s about to have a helluva platform to spout her foolishness from. Then again, once you sell your work in Hollywood, you really have no control. I’m gonna look for the silver lining and hope Shonda flips the script to pull away some of the layers of how she arrived at this state of mind. The backstory on mama’s lesbianism + fleeing from her life to find a respite in the unknown would be great fodder for this…
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
Your article is on point! I’ll make it one of my regular reads. It’s exhausting because it brings up the same ol’ same ol’: Black girl wants to pursue a career, so she goes for an education (whether it’s vocational, college, or graduate), has a bit of success at what she does, and BAM..she all of a sudden becomes this lonely b**ch who can’t keep a man, find a man, or dig one up from the grave, and so on and so on.
Can’t we simply enjoy being single and embrace a relationship when it the opportunity comes along? It’s like we always have to choose between being “lonely and single” (which are not synonymous) or “happy and married” (definitely not synonymous).
@Kit (Keep It Trill),
You handled it very well and with great sensitivity, and I gave you a shout out for this in a post I wrote this morning
thanks and sh*t. i enjoyed your entry, btw.
Champ, I have a question for some of the helen doppelgangers if you don’t mind me asking.
No? Okay thanks.
Ladies, why is it so many of you feel that or equate being in a relationship or marriage to losing your freedom?
@Raqi,
Ladies, why is it so many of you feel that or equate being in a relationship or marriage to losing your freedom?
We don’t. It’s when some ninjas want to create a false sense of security for themselves by keeping to many “tabs” on you that the loss of freedom becomes a reality.
@Ivyette, co-sign completely. There are some men out there who believe marriage gives them papers on you and they are now your owners. Now simply because you are his wife, you are now limited and can no longer be/do/see/go whatever/whomever/wherever you were before you became his wife. That is how you lose your freedom.
@Raqi,
Personally, I don’t see it that way and have been under the impression that a lot of young men equate marriage with a loss of freedom.
First-time commenter here, great post.
I especially co-sign 2 and 5 (and also 3, with the caveat that things aren’t always greener on the other side in this category as well; one of the most important lessons that we can all learn is that most issues in “Black” romance usually transcend racial boundaries: http://tinyurl.com/yknp7xx , http://tinyurl.com/yaknwyl).
Three other observations:
1. I think that people get confused on the “standards” issue, because they lump strong preferences and substantively legitimate deal-breakers into a single category, and then think that bending on the former is equivalent to bending on the latter. In the abstract, my “ideal” would look like Noemie Lenoir in the face and have a body like video Rosa Acosta. I haven’t succeeded in that yet, but if I waited to pull that off and then complained that there are “no good black women,” how ridiculous would I look? There’s a difference between relaxing one’s “preferences” and lowering one’s “standards.”
I would also say that a corollary of this is that there should be more admitting that often, there are “good” men out there, but that a specific woman just might not be attracted to those particular men.
2. I co-sign the point about looking for people with potential. There’s still a bit of the high-school girl dating the college boy with a car mentality when it comes to these things.
A few months back, there was some offense taken in some corners of the blogosphere at the article at the Root about whether most professional Black women in Michelle’s position would have given Barack the time of day back when they met. People brought up the fact that he was at Harvard (as if she hadn’t attended Princeton and Harvard herself, and as if there aren’t ~150-180 Black students at Harvard Law at any given point, not to mention the Black students at the other professional schools, and as if she weren’t already working while he was still in school) and that he had been EiC of the Law Review (even though he didn’t have that position yet) to try to defuse the point (and let’s not forget that years into their relationship, he lost a few of his earlier forays into politics), but it still stands. True, not every man will be a Barack, and not every woman is a Michelle. But I’ve seen too many late 90s daytime talk show episodes where the girl who was a “zero” in high school is now a dime piece not to believe that even among people who aren’t in their position, sometimes those with potential that will be fulfilled one day are being passed over.
3. I suspect that the phenomenon of the successful Black male going for 2520 (or other non-Black) women is overstated. Does anyone have actual, current data? According to Wikipedia’s page on IR marriage in the US (which is in turn based on the PUMS census data), 90.4% of married Black men in the US, with a college degree or higher, married Black women. This, of course, says little about what things look like going into 2010, what the percentages look like for those with graduate and professional degrees, and how this number affects the overall pool of single men (since the Wikipedia page doesn’t say what percentage of males in the survey are married), but in any case it seems like intermarriage is far less of a problem than the initial imbalance at that level to begin with.
Sorry for the long-winded comment. I suppose that this is why I usually lurk.
@Helagramki,
3. I suspect that the phenomenon of the successful Black male going for 2520 (or other non-Black) women is overstated.
it is. extremely. and the stats are extremely misleading.
for instance, there was an article making the rounds a year or so ago that stated that black men were 4 times more likely to marry interracially than black women. and, of course, this spawned a predictable firestorm of blogs, articles, and angry facebook statuses.
thing is, the actual percentage of black men who were married to white women was something like 8 percent, which, technically, is four times more than the 2 percent of black women married to white men, but there really isnt much difference between 98% and 92%.
Fab read. Doubt most of the mainstream will wanna delve that far past the surface, tho I’ll stay hopeful. It’s such a pity cuz she’s about to have a helluva platform to spout her foolishness from. Then again, once you sell your work in Hollywood, you really have no control. I’m gonna look for the silver lining and hope Shonda flips the script to pull away some of the layers of how she arrived at this state of mind. The backstory on mama’s lesbianism + fleeing from her life to find a respite in the unknown would be great fodder for this…
@bittersweet’s baby,
Whoopsie, this was in response to KIT…
I am tired of this whole argument. I watched the video and everything she said that make her and women like her catches were degrees, status, and material things. A master’s degree and a 100K doesn’t make you a good girlfriend or wife. In the article she mentioned a dude named “Cornrows”. I know that in the professional jobs that I’ve had you couldn’t get in the door with cornrows. A lot of these women are victims of their poor choices in men, If you like and are attracted to BS then BS is what you will get. I’m not saying to date Dejaun off the block. But at the same time you can’t tell me you can’t meet professional Black men. It seems that professional Black men only exist in the blog world. I think these women want the Black Gordon Gecko. Not knowing what you have in store dealing with a Gordon Gecko type person.
@Humble_One,
Say that!!
@Humble_One,
Exactly…then cry foul when they have to deal with the consequences.
Great post champie poo poo!
My dad fears to this day that I may never find a man to marry me. What man would marry someone with a PhD in neuroscience??!?
The summer before starting my PhD program, my uncle called to have “the talk” with me. He wanted me to know that the more schooling I had, the more limited I would be in options for a mate. He wasn’t trying to discourage me from attending grad school, but he’d read some article in a magazine that discussed how educated black woman were having a hard time finding men. He even had the talk with my dad who was very fearful that his favorite daughter would end up unwed and with no family of her own.
The funny thing is, I haven’t had problems dating men with successful careers. If anything being in grad school has made it that much easier. At a point, i started to question whether or not I was being too easy with accepting their courtship. Maybe I was more into the idea that they were doctors or businessmen and not whether not I actually liked them. I blame my dad. lol! It’s been a learning process but I think this is what sets us educated black woman back, trying to find mister Perfect (big degree, big salary, nice teeth, works out, goes to church, visits his mother every Sunday, feeds the cats in the morning). We try to find the man that mom/dad or society thinks we should be with rather than find someone that we enjoy being with. Once I stop worrying about such things, I’ve been much happier with the options that are present.
Moral: You don’t have to overlook the importance of education and motivation but dating a man with a 6 figure salary isn’t everything. Find someone that makes you smile independent of their education or salary.
@Ivy St., IMO it is not the degrees or level of education that is the problem, but the mindset that many adopt once achieved. I have friends with degrees but they are not the “Ms. Independent-I don’t need a man-I’m doing you a favor giving you the time of day” type. Their degrees do not define them. They don’t walk around with a sense of entitlement because they capable of earning a bigger paycheck. It’s that type that have the problems, not the ones that realize more is just an enhancer.
As I stated earlier, it is not the degrees that ruin the person, it’s the attitude behind it.
@Ivy St., hahahaa, your post made me smile. My uncle had the same discussion with me right before I started the doc program. I would always hear “…atleast you will be around to take care of every one else’s kids cause no one will want to marry your over educated behind (smh)”. Its been the opposite though, I met my someone
while I was in the program (no he is not a Dr). I did meet the guy that told me outright that he can’t get with the fact that I have more degrees than him (In my head I’m thinking, I am not my degrees what is wrong with you Ninja, Lord I have stories) but I met some amazing amazing men (of all nationalities, races, etc.). I have not run into this Helena Andrews issue yet.
@Highfive,
And that’s exactly what I am saying… There are a lot of educated, intelligent black women out there who are are not experiencing the Helena Andrews syndrom…. and the HA dopplegangers might want to take a look…
@Ivy St.,
Great post champie poo poo!
thanks and sh*t, ivy streets
@Ivy St.,
Once I stop worrying about such things, I’ve been much happier with the options that are present.
^Say that!
@Ivy St.,
What man would marry someone with a PhD in neuroscience??!?
I’d venture a cat with a PhD in Psychology. Hell, that was one of the things that drew me into psychology originally, was the ratio of women to men.
@Ivy St.,
Thank you!!! And by what I read of you on this site, I am absolutely not surprised as to why. You are a great person, period. PhD or not! And I supposed that’s what men like and see…
This whole debate just bores me at best and infuriates me at times.
@Sula,
You might be the first to say something nice about me on this site.
Aww thanks!
First off its so rare to come across someone with whom you really click and connect with ,have chemistry and true compatibility with…. these things alone are hard. now when folk get to throwing other things in mix it becomes even harder.
You can attract all sorts but beauty gaurantees nothing, cept more of everything coming at you, the wiser/stronger etc you have to be.
Real love is rare period.
@OrangeStar616,
***nodding head and sh*t***
Sometimes ladies we have unrealistic expectations! Yes…you heard it here. Nobody has everything we “want”. Period. Pick things that are important character issues, and let some stuff go…so he doesn’t plan dates well, or he dresses tacky, or he is shorter then 5’11. I made the decision to be open and joined an online dating site. Massive success. Funny, Cute, Smart, educated men of all colors and shapes. I could barely keep up with my social calendar! Do it for you. Be open, and be “the change you want to see in the world”. Bring a fun, loyal, loving person to the table.
That is all.
@Cayenne,
‘Be open”
definitely a tshirt
*phone rings*
Helena – “Hey girl, I know you know some guys, hook me up”
Matchmaker – “Of course, there’s this perfect 6’1″ dark skin brother that’s a partner a pretty big advertising firm here in town. He’s a good Christian man. ”
Helena – “ooh, set me up”
Matchmaker – “cool, lemme make a phone call”
*phone rings*
Denzel Obama – “This is Denzel, how may I help you”
Matchmaker – “Hey D, I got somebody perfect for you. She’s attractive, charming, has a degree from University of Chicago, works a good job @ the Department of State, has a closet full of Louboutin and Jimmy Choos, her own condo on U-street, a nice C-class Benz. I know her from an empowered black women’s retreat to Senegal”
Denzel – “I don’t care about alladat, she got a phat a$$ though?”
@WestIndianArchie,
LMAO and basically you can end the post here.
My own homegirl was just complaining to me this week about why she can’t land some dude she been chasing since she moved down here. She listing off her qualifications like thats impressive. I’m like baby this is DC, what makes you think anything you just said was special? Stop focusing on what you have and what he has, and start focusing on how he treats you and how you value yourself to be treated.
@Dorian G., “I’m like baby this is DC, what makes you think anything you just said was special? ”
LOL…AMEN!
@Dorian G., I’m like baby this is DC, what makes you think anything you just said was special?
quite possibly the realest sh*t you’ve ever written.
@Panama Jackson,
Damn I’m flattered lol.
@Dorian G.,
They way I would put it, is that the things that a woman may value in a man (degrees, confidence, go-getting-ness) aren’t the things that a man values in a woman.
-> Separate and apart from the male/female dynamic, those things that she values, SOCIETY values.
@Dorian G., I’m like baby this is DC, what makes you think anything you just said was special?
*dead*
@WestIndianArchie,
LOL….at your screen name and entire post. Denzel Obama? Dont’ forget about Idris Chestnut.
@WestIndianArchie, Ah yes…the phat booty meat…make all them degrees pale in importance….if you a well off, on the grind kinda dude….when u come home you want a bad chick…that means sometimes but not necessarily an equally ambitious chick….more likely its a bad chick that gives you something to look at…..got a great personality…..can cook her ass off….and dont talk a whole lot…..
@Blacklaw,
MMM….pass me one of them if you see one…
@WestIndianArchie,
i’m guilty, there have been plenty of women i instantly disqualified from the race to mrs. carver simply because they lacked callipygianality…
but then again i know what i like, and the author of this blog stated that we are allowed one somewhat shallow relationship deal-breaker, that’s mine.
i’m writing an autobiography entitled “the quest for the callipygian ideal”
Champ you basically hammered home the same thing I said on another avenue of these interwebz earlier this week. The thing that gets me is that the overwhelming majority of true “dimes/catches/prized women” whatever you wanna call them that I know over the age of 27/28 are in fulfilling, meaningful relationships with generally good dudes. They don’t have these problems. Its usually the B-team type chicks who feel like they should be getting max contracts that do the loudest yelling.
Truth be told I’m in the DC area, I work here and play here everyday. Granted this woman is a little bit older than me, but I would like to think I fall under the umbrella of dude that she is saying is so hard to find. From first impressions of the video I would not seriously date her. Sure I might pursue her/f*ck her/chill, but serious dating, nope I’ll pass thanks. So in reality we don’t have problems finding each other, I found you and decided to go elsewhere.
@Dorian G., “So in reality we don’t have problems finding each other, I found you and decided to go elsewhere.”
well dayum…lol *sniggling*
@Dorian G., real talk homie….i could neva seriously date this chick but I would def. chex it up……not no nice pleasant, romantic ish either yadig
@Dorian G., good point. and Champ and I talked about that last week sometime too.
most of the upwardly mobile and successful cats i know in DC?
got women. Black’uns.
@Dorian G.,
Your entire post is a *shots fired*. ::snickers::
You are spot on with #4 (as long as she got there with integrity :-p) and that was exactly what I did. I got into this country and was immediately hit with the “girl, once you get those extra degrees and that 6-7 figure salary…it will be hard to meet men”, after that I started looking for tickets to go back home (lol). Seriously, I took notes from my mother and I also studied other women around me that are successful (very) and happily married (Like Champ said, if you want to be a millionaire, you take notes from your mentors that are millionaires). I see how they do not tote their accomplishments and walk around with some silly sense of entitlement and they are also respected by their husbands because they give them the respect they deserve.
It would be nice if “successful” black women stop looking down your nose at every man you think does not measure up, look at potential instead of ready-made and really look at what the person possesses on the inside. Yes, you stand a chance of meeting a man who might not be too comfortable with the fact that you can be independent (or maybe its just a cultural thing) but today’s modern man likes a woman that can bring something to the plate (this has been my experience).
As a “successful” young woman, I have been blessed to come in contact with some stellar men. They might not have my three degrees but they have other traits that amount to more than three degrees would ever amount to.
@Highfive,
They might not have my three degrees but they have other traits that amount to more than three degrees would ever amount to
lol, i wouldnt go that far. your degrees (whatever they hell they’re in) are definitely meaningful. i know you’re probably not thinking that they’re not, but i just don’t want people to go to far with the “my degrees aint sh*t” sentiment
@The Champ, O no that’s not what I meant at all. I value my marketable degrees, heck I worked hard for them but they are really and truly not the end all be all and I don’t let the fact that I have them give me a sense of hoity-toitiness (for a lack of better words). They are a part of my accomplishments but I can say they are not the biggest.
However, I stand by wanting traits that are priceless in comparison to three or however many degrees. If he is just as “educated” and has those traits, then hey!!! If he is not as “educated” (which to me means he is educated past the bachelor’s level :-p, depending on the field) but has those traits then hey too!!
@Highfive,
Great points!
I guess I have to say I agree with the Champ, this horse been beaten to death along with blk men dating out, etc. etc.
Why are we the only “race” that has to air our bidness for everyone to see? Leave it in the hair salon and the barbershop, where no subject is sacred.
@Stank-0,
Why are we the only “race” that has to air our bidness for everyone to see?
i wouldn’t say that. i think every race in this country (except, of course, native americans) has had their intraracial issues on front street at one time or another
i know i’m for one tired of this debate. i 100% cosign with point number 5. women (or men) aren’t entitled to ish when it comes to the dating game. you can’t make someone WANT to be with you just like that guy you think you are too good for can’t make you want to be with him. this horse is already deceased so stop wasting time beating it.
@Tunde, true this sh*t is very tired, you can talk about it all day and all night but whats still left is that 42% of unmarried black women.
@OrangeStar616, that may or may not be true but who’s fault is that? the other 58% are/were married. you can’t blame others for all your shortcomings. *kanyeshrug*
@Tunde,
Agreed!
Beyonce:
I want the money,
Money and the cars,
Cars and the clothes, (and to be)
Betrothed! (Troooooothed!)
I suppose…
I just want to be… I just want to be successfullllllll
I just want I to be… I just want to be successfulllllll
Helena:
Awww yeah B, I effin’ feel ya
They be staring at the B.A. like it’s unfamiliar
I got it and earned it, to me there’s nothing realer
Except this condo in the ‘burbs, something like a villa,
And when I leave, I always come right back here (alone)
The black woman that all of these black men fear,
I had me a winter boo, but that was last year
Dropped his a** quick, he was a muthaf*ckin’ cashier!
A thousand thread count sheets on my bed,
Quarters of creamy crack shape the perm in my head,
Take my attitude too serious, you hate me,
Cause I don’t feel a brutha who ain’t ballin’ with a J.D.
Yeah… I want it all that’s why I strive for it
Text me, and you’ll never get a reply for it
Any Happy Hour, 1st Friday, I get fly for it
I know hubby’s coming, I just hope that I’m alive for him…
@SouthernCharm,
*snickering loudly*
@SouthernCharm, I can’t breathe….”I know hubby’s coming, I just hope that I’m alive for him…”.
@SouthernCharm, this is funny and yet scary that u flowed on this so adroitly
@SouthernCharm, actual brilliance!!!!!!!
@SouthernCharm,
LMAO!!! go’head…
@SouthernCharm, that was WAY to well done. LOL.
like seriously good damn job. you musta been a Chappelle’s Show writer or something.
@Panama Jackson,
thanks. i appreciate that. it’s a gift. lol
@SouthernCharm,
/\_/\_/\____/\______/\________________________________
@SouthernCharm,
Ok, I had to take time off from actually working (hey ya’ll! The Man has been piling work on us as of late…miss ya!) but I had to run in here just so I can die from your song above.
*dying* @ your song above.
Thanks. LMAO.
@SouthernCharm,
wow.
this is definitely in the top five vsb comments ever
@SouthernCharm, You’re a f*kin idiot! – LOL… I was about to read the article and watch the video, but I have a feelin this sums it up entirely. Thanks for that!
@SouthernCharm,
Nice Remix, Charm.
@SouthernCharm
GOOD SHYT!!! HA!!!
@SouthernCharm,
LOL!! Best comment of the day! lol.
@SouthernCharm, I LOVE IT!!!
@SouthernCharm, I think I want to download this! I’m officially dead at this!
@SouthernCharm,
Bwahahahaha!! Or how to make Drake relevant again.
I luvs it!
champ,
im exhausted even typing this and society would deem me a “sbw” and im not down for the bullshit that places us on pedestals, just because of degrees. however, heres the e-mail response i sent to my friend, after reading the post article:
and contrary to popular belief this whole “im successful, have multiple degrees, graduated from this school,” does not mean that you are more entitled to a man than others, which is my hangup with topics/articles/and books like this. yes, its a popular trend, but also each “successful black woman” is an individual who happens to be successful, were not a conglomerate with similar personalities, except for resumes, which is amusing to me, because society commercializes/capitalizes on this “successful black women cant find men” topic, and run rampant with it. our resumes are similar so then our dating lives HAVE TO be similar! theres clearly a problem here. yes, i understand there are similarities, but i think that this topic provides a cope out for individuals holding themselves accountable for personal growth, change and peace. in this washington post article, the author says that she is perceived as a “bitch” at her office, and thats the way she maneuvers in the world, almost as if she’s supposed to because she has boxed and deemed herself “a successful black woman” and thats how we role. bullshit. how about you sever your personality from the masses and mass consumerist generalizations and get you right, and be loving as oppposed to a bitch.
im just sayin…
seeing that her book is entitled “bitch is the new black”
:collapses due to topic fatigue:
@p.eden,
welcome and sh*t
and, between the lack of caps, the ending, and the fact that you were able to curse and make it past moderation, i enjoyed reading this comment
@The Champ,
thank yah. thank yah.
champ, you weren’t down for the like the lack of caps? eh?
@The Champ,
thank yah. thank yah.
champ, you weren’t down for the lack of caps? eh?
@p.eden,
this topic provides a cope out for individuals holding themselves accountable for personal growth, change and peace
This right here, I say this right here is the mother effin’ truth!
It’s almost like people shy away from actually developping personalities but are instead piling on “attributes” that “society” has deemed acceptable to create the ideal “woman” or “man”… At what point do you actually, you know, become a human being as opposed to a long list of degrees/accomplishments? Being educated is not a replacement for being intelligent. And an intelligent woman will always be hot in the streets, on the boulevard, in the boardroom AND in the house… whereas an “educated” woman is only as useful as her education…
damn champ. you did it again. your writing style NEVER ceases to amaze me. i really don’t have anything to add. keep up the good work
@tnt_FTW,
your writing style NEVER ceases to amaze me.
lol, you obviously havent seen some of my contrived attempts at witty facebook status messages, but thanks and sh*t.
@The Champ,
a. status updates doth not= posts
b. i have 400 “friends” on fb. i generally only see the top 10 at any given time
c. you welcome and isht
You know what really throws me off about this chick and the article and her new book and sh*t: she’s in this article talking about winter boos and being free for the summer.
So either you want a man or you don’t. Which is it? You’re playing the game like a dude and wondering why it isn’t working in your favor.
You want a man when you want a man, and when you don’t want a man you want a man to understand that.
Seem’s so contradictory to talking about being lonely when you’re clearly the very reason for it. Or are these “boos” just placeholders until some man worth your time comes along to swoop off your feet and keep your warm so your degrees don’t have to do it anymore?
I think that part alone came off really assholish and made me think to myself, even if I was single, I’d NEVER date a chick like this.
Plus she doesn’t look like she smiles.
@Panama Jackson,
what struck me was how content she was with being a b$tch and knowing that was the problem for her. no man wants to date that. if shes desperate enough she will change for the better. nobdoy wants to be that 37yr old single woman whose friends are all married.
@Panama Jackson,
I caught that Little Brother reference…nice.
@AkShone,
I did too, I didn’t think he did it on purpose
when life gives you lemons make lemonade…so if a lot of successful black women are single, why not try to enjoy the benefits of being single. i’m not saying give up on relationships, but just stop focusing so much on them.
the more attention you give a problem, the bigger it becomes.
the champ’s first idea was to change, this is what you do in sports, if your jump shot is off, try to drive to the basket, if your running game is off, then pass…simple logic.
@Carver The Great, just a quick question. why do you have to automatically change up your jump shot game? not EVERYONE is gonna make that basket on first try. you have to practice, and then if you still can’t make. then switch to something else.
@tnt_FTW,
my bad, i should have been more explicit, “jump shot being off” implies multiple unsuccessful attempts.
@Carver The Great, I agree… some women focus so much on GETTING IN a relationship like the divorce rates are going down-smh… why rush I say?… it’ll happen when it happens.
@Yeah…SO?!,
truth.
First of all I want to thank Panama for posting this today. I too read this article last Wednesday and i was surprised that many of the women know their faults and refuse to change and instead embrace the “bitch is the new black” bullish(like that is going to solve anything). My boy and I honestly talk about this subject every few days and feel that we needed an open forum(vsb, cnn, church, 60 minutes, etc) to get our word out to the masses of dopplegangers. I for one love a woman with her ish together. as a native DMVer and HU grad u see women doing their thing everywhere and its an extremely attractive attribute. My pops always told me to marry someone smarter than yourself and i truly believe this. that said i hope every successful chick that is having a problem getting a man reads this because they a$$es need to hear this. Please see below.
1) stop talkin about what you can do for yourself–nobody wants to hear constantly about all the ish they can without yo a$$ in their life. any man that is actually interested in you wants you to want them as well but not if your gona be pullin out the “do u think i need u here to drink my kool-aid and watch my tv?” at some point that ish gets old and u will be watchin ur tv and drinkin ur own low calorie sweetener kool-aid all alone.
2) dont throw your resume in his face–ur man already knows that u went to columbia and make 100K and that ur ready to take on the world. we know this. so there is no need for you to say that crap to boost your own ego in front of ur man. who wants to hear “well if u went to columbia like me maybe you would have a better paying job” everytime he cant buy you those coach shoes you covet.
3) allow yourself to be humbled by ur man every once in a while. is it really necessary to win at EVERYTHING IN LIFE EVERY SINGLE TIME? if ur arguing over whose turn it is to buy the milk and refuse to backdown about something that small there is something wrong with you. allow your man to think he has won an argument or two just for to be humble. no man wants to take on She-ra everytime.
4) dont try and be “the man” and let a man be a man. through my own research humans have been getting married for thousands of years. and from 4,000 years until about 1979, men and women have always played a certain “role” in a relationship and marriage. this role is for the woman to act as a woman an embrace certain things women are historically supposed to be and the same for men. many of these stupid doppelgangers refuse to let a man do damn near anything for them. a man wants to be the man in the relationship and for his woman to be a woman. he wants to help you assemble that bookcase b/c thats his role and he wants you to ask him to help. its very simple and has been working for thousands of years…dont rock the boat.
5) we aren’t attracted to your degrees—u think we care if Melissa Ford or Buffy the Body went to Princeton? Hell F&ck No. off break we noticed your face, smile, DD-Cup, 40in hips, and wonderful smell. We likely don’t care if u went to ITT Tech. Princeton is just an added bonus.
Am I the only one who thinks like this??
@freaknik29, P.S. Champ wrote this post, not P, but thanks for the complement anyway!
@freaknik29, clap, clap, bravo!!! You’re did it boy! That is exactly what’s up! You know I agree with you 110%, but it is sad to say, that there are so many females out here who believe that this is an issue. No, homelessness is an issue. Racial profiling is an issue. Not the spoiled black girl who can’t get a man because of her OWN ISSUES.
I know Helena pretty well, so I’ll spare judgment on what I hope will be a very successful book/movie for her. That said, I will say some women (I can only really talk about black women because I don’t know that many white women frankly) shoot themselves in the foot pretty early. Give you an example: I was at a bougie birthday party the other day and I was talking to a couple of girls I’d met previously who were sitting at the bar, and the talk of course went to relationships. I asked them why they were all together in their “safety cluster” with their backs to the party, and they replied that they expected a man to come over and get to campaigning. Which is fine, but for the fact that there were a million other pretty girls mixing and mingling within the party itself, so they were essentially taking themselves out of the game. I was talking to one and when we talked about bringing things to a relationship, I mentioned I could build her a house. Her knee-jerk reaction was “I can build a house myself!” I had to explain to her what a turnoff that was. I don’t know if it’s a BW thing but there does seem to be this huge emphasis on the part of our women on being socioeconomic equals vs. a great partner. Being a true partner means being complementary and bringing things to the table your partner doesn’t, not just being able to do the same thing. I mean it’s great that we have two houses now, but wouldn’t it be better to have one house where someone cooks, the kids are cared for and tutored, the grass is cut, and someone picked out nice furniture? I think a lot of people miss that.
@Brandon St. Randy,
I know Helena pretty well, so I’ll spare judgment on what I hope will be a very successful book/movie for her.
lol, i see that liz has been talking to her through twitter, and apparently she thinks my entry misses her entire point.
@The Champ, Enh. All this discussion will be great for her book sales. Look at how many people Glenn Beck accuses of misunderstanding them
@Brandon St. Randy,
I never understood why they think any man who is out to socialize wants to “campaign” to a chick in her sisterhood circle, texting away the nite and acting like a snob? What’s the use of going out?
@CPT Callamity, I think it’s an ego thing. people feel good about themselves when folks break their neck to get with you. And it’s not that they won’t get dudes trying. But typically they’ll also get very type-A dudes who are born to hunt. So yeah, dude will break his neck to get at you. And five other chicks just for the chall-onge
@CPT Callamity,
This is why I try to go out with just one of my homegirls, or I go out by myself. I get so much more play than I do when it’s 5 of us chilling at a table in the corner.
@N.I.A. lovesthekids…,
See. You understand. I tried to explain this to a female friend of mine. She was bemoaning how she can’t find a good man…but she’s not approachable. At. All.
Women just need to be approachable, and men handle the rest.
@N.I.A. lovesthekids…, rolling in packs is for the scared/weak…. don’t mean no harm…….and its seems like something women folk would learn early on, its not easy sometimes for a man to approach and the pack makes it more intimidating..or if you do go out in groups, disperse and feel out the place and function once you get there..geesh SMH..
@N.I.A. lovesthekids…,
sooo tru…. my entire freshman year of college me & my girls rolled 8-10 deep and we always stuck together and couldnt figure out why guys seemed hesitant to approach us… add in the fact one of the girls in the circle insisted on verbally emasculating any man who dared approach one of us… not a good look
@Brandon St. Randy,
“…but wouldn’t it be better to have one house where someone cooks, the kids are cared for and tutored, the grass is cut, and someone picked out nice furniture? I think a lot of people miss that.”
Yes. So when shall we do all this? (smile)
@Brandon St. Randy,
But wouldn’t it be better to have one house where someone cooks, the kids are cared for and tutored, the grass is cut, and someone picked out nice furniture? I think a lot of people miss that.
Yes, please. I’m selling my house right now anyway. LOL
Bravo to your post! (and many others, so please forgive my neglect to say thank you to all ya’ll at VSB. I really enjoy this blog!)
That said, I read up on Sis in another blog and that “winter boo” comment seemed so….I think my action of rolling my eyes can convey my feeling on that more than words. If that one comment turned me off and I’m a single black woman (just like her) and I want to be sympathetic, I can only imagine how that can come off to someone who has no desire or care to be sympathetic.
@legitimate_soul,
thanks and sh*t. we really enjoy you all as well
Kudos on the great post, Champ. You did a good job of hitting home with your points without being insulting and insensitive.
Intelligent, educated, successful black women have every right be happy like everyone else. There is nothing wrong with having standards. If you didn’t, I would wonder about you. At the same time, you have to realistic about the world that we live in today. Your degrees, job and accomplishments are a PART of who you are, not who you are overall as a person. A lot about you can be gathered from those things, but making that who you are can really turn people off, not just men. Now that I am older, a lot of that doesn’t mean a thing to me anymore because I have met women with all of that going for them but are still bitchy, unsociable and are basically idiots about anything outside of their occupations.
A lot of black men today were raised by single moms who are strong, educated black women. We know what you all are capable of because of that so do us a favor: STOP THROWING YOUR CAPABILITIES IN OUR FACES! Those same capabilities are what made us the men we are today and it’s honestly what attracts us to you. Because our moms raised us and our siblings basically by themselves, we more than likely are not going to be attracted to dumb females with a weak state of mind. Believe it or not, if we get the vibe of your strength and intelligence from initial meeting, we are ready to go deeper (bad choice of words but oh well) after that to see if you are worth our time in the long run. Men are really attracted by humility in a woman because a lot of us come from humble beginnings with a strong, intelligent yet humble woman was the figurehead in our lives.
That’s just my perspective on this topic. At 27, I have realized how big of an influence my mom and my oldest sister had on me in becoming a man and realized that my best friends who grew up in the same circumstances see their mothers as that same strong influence. In the words of Tyler Durden from Fight Club: “We are a generation of men raised by women.” We love and respect your accomplishments and independence, believe it or not. Really, on the cusp of 2010, if you ain’t got your own, you got issues.
Oh yeah, much love to all the VSS that are single moms. If no one else loves you, the ComicBookGuy does.
@ComicBookGuy,
Kudos on the great post, Champ. You did a good job of hitting home with your points without being insulting and insensitive.
dammit!!! i was trying to be insulting and insensitive. i’m not very good at this
@The Champ,
Face it, dude. You apparently are a thoughtful guy.
@ComicBookGuy, I just saw that movie this weekend… classic! “His name was Robert Pullson”- lol
@Yeah…SO?!,
I love that movie. I knew I would like it when I first saw it but when I heard that line by Brad Pitt, it made me like it even more because it was basically a social commentary instead of an action movie. Plus those words rang true with me and closest friends.
@ComicBookGuy, you know… I never really payed attention to that line in the movie but now that you bring it up- that isht is deep, huh? I mean looking at the characters in the movies as a whole… that isht got my eyebrows soar… there’s so much in that statement alone.
@Yeah…SO?!,
I’m telling ya, it has stayed with me all of these years. Just a few weeks ago, I talking to my sister about it and how my closest circle of friends with includes I grew up with and guys I met in college all have that similarity and we all leaned on each other and our moms to help us get through college. They are the closest thing I have to brothers since I grew up as an only boy.
@ComicBookGuy, wow that’s really sweet… I should watch that movie again- from your perspective. All this time I’ve just been intrigued that both characters were one person, but this isht makes it SO much more interesting.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Glad I could be of service.
Let me through a little nugget at you: When Tyler Durden said that, it was based on the idea that men of this generation are so overly aggressive because being raised women, we don’t have a man to really help us channel that aggression and it ends up fueling negative outlets of that aggression, i.e, crime, abuse of women, abuse of ourselves. Lucky for me, my old man was still around when I was growing up.
Damn, I have no idea why I am so philosophical today. Either it’s the subject or that I may have bagged a potential big customer today at work.
@ComicBookGuy, so you agree with that theory? I would think the opposite… a lot of the men I meet that are raised solely by women are ultra sensitive.
@ComicBookGuy, and congrats on your “possible” as we like to say in spades.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Being ultra sensitive is the other extreme. Guys like me grow up trying to find a balance, yet at the same time all the women in my family are tough women, from my grandmothers down. I can be a really sensitive guy because I grew up having to be in tuned with other peoples feelings because I grew up around women, but still be masculine enough to not give a f**k sometimes because I learned the hard way that women like that in a man. It’s good to be nice but want that strength in a man too. It has caused a lot of men to really look for that balance because being raised primarily by a woman really does affect men, more than will admit it. I am just a guy that can admit.
Thanks for the congrats. The last few months have been hard at the J. I am ready to start getting back on the road and making more new customers.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Sorry. Took your name by accident.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Being ultra sensitive is the other extreme. Finding the balance between being sensitive and in tune with other people’s feelings and yet being strong like a man should is an everyday thing for me. I try not to be an @$$hole but there are times where it can necessary in order to stand your ground and get your point across to be people.
@ComicBookGuy, OMG… can’t believe you’re still here. lol
Anyway, that last part… you lost me.- but I’m listening/reading… paying attention. Wut you sayin?
@Yeah…SO?!,
My bad. My original reply got messed up earlier. Basically, I am saying that being overly aggressive and ultra sensitive, I feel, are the two extremes that can come from having a primarily female in your life as a man. It may not get that bad for the majority of men out there, but they are the possibilities. Men that are raised by single moms subconsciously try to find the balance between being a complete @$$hole and a complete pu**y, i.e. being masculine and strong and being caring and loving.
Yeah, I’m still here, bout to jet in 10. Been good conversing with you on here. You are hilarious. Thanks for the congrats. Trying to hit the ground running in 2010.
@ComicBookGuy, Thanks it’s been cool chattin it up wit you too… I’ll leave the room key under the mat.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Fight Club is one of my favorite movies, but that entire quote is:
We’re a generation of men raised by women. I’m wondering if another woman is the answer we really need.
That quote was in reference to getting married and how ‘following the plan’ wasn’t necessarily working out for Tyler and Jack.
I always thought that, that particular line was aimed at folks who are constantly looking for external factors to define themselves by e.g. money, job, clothes, etc. rather then what should define them, their actions. Sure, it’s a result of the lack of a male role model and the resulting confusion on ‘what it means to be a man’, but I think it’s larger then that.
@ Shay,
Damn Shay, I really do need to see that movie again… seems like it could be a combination of the two (your point as well as Comic’s)… yeah I’m watchin it tonite.
I hate it when ya’ll make me think and isht.- lol
@Shay,
Good point. I just that part of the quote because it really stood out to me. I have to read the book now. The movie was full of metaphors so I know probably deeper than that.
@ComicBookGuy, Aww shucks! That was so sweet : )
@Hershey’s Kiss,
Aww shucks. Thanks. Encouraging women has always been one of my favorite things to do.
@ComicBookGuy,
Okay…I am a huge comic book fan,but not really of DC and Marvel after the Civil War and Infinite (Truly Never Ending) Crisis debacle (it never stops there though I am following Blackest Night), so you just made a new friend, whether you like it or not, based on your name alone
Hi!
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
Hey Soibhan. It is always great to meet a comic book fan of color. My sister is the one that got me into comics. I am loving Blackest Night and I am glad that things are going to get back to some kind of normalcy in the Marvel Universe with Cap, Iron Man and Thor getting back together. It’s cool to make new friends.
Oh yeah, I checked out your blog. Thank you for your service to the country. Glad that you are back home safely.
I know it’s late but sue me. Getting an engineering degree gave a good job and an eternal case of insomnia.
@ComicBookGuy,
LOL, yay fellow fan! I won’t blame you for being late. In fact I’ll share a shameful secret with you. Everytime someone says I’m glad you got back I immediately think of my friends and co-workers that didn’t. So I kind of rather people didn’t say it but it’s good that they do…if that makes sense.
That blog…I haven’t been motivated to write since I got back really so it’s OLD LOL
@ComicBookGuy,
And your post was lovely
I like the film Fight Club almost as much as the film…even though they end differently…but I like the jacked up end of the book a LITTLE better
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
*I like the film Fight Club almost as much as the novel*
@Siobhan Means Woman of Wisdom,
You now have me intrigued to read the book. Might give me something to read when I start travelling again for work.
@ComicBookGuy, read the book! It’s messy but good.
I waste 99% of my time on women like who Helena MAY be, and the one thing I take away from them is that they all treat the process of finding love as if it’s some homework assignment, or thesis, or business project. Whether it’s from a natural drive, some childhood trauma, or whatever, these women have learned that if they analyze and think and plot, they’ll get EXACTLY what they want. To be clear, it’s not that they feel entitled because they have degrees and great jobs, it’s that their behavior leads them to degrees, and great jobs, and wine tastings AND a single life. Asking WHY every time your professor said something = good. Asking guys WHY every time they try to spit game or get you to do something they like but you haven’t done before = a life long love affair with your pure bred cats. No well intentioned guy really gives a shyt about your degrees or job once you reach a certain level. And no one wants to sit around all day listening to you talk about work or how smart you are. So if you can’t keep a guy or even find a guy, it’s probably cause people just don’t like YOU. It’s not that tough a concept.
@An Island,
Yeah see, you talking waaaay too freely up in here and at the risk of speaking against the establishment. How dare you! Good job! : ]
@An Island,
This —-> Asking guys WHY every time they try to spit game or get you to do something they like but you haven’t done before = a life long love affair with your pure bred cats. is hilarious!!!
@An Island,
a love affair with your pure bred cats: PRICELESS
This lady is enjoying you and everyone else on this post, all the way in Seoul, South Korea.
Ciao!
First I must say, I LOVE VSB!!!
Now, as a SBF, I must say, this chick is crazy! You mean to tell me that because you put your education, your condo, your job, your designer clothes on front street, all of a sudden you’re entitled to have a man? C’mon son!!! First of all, a man could love a woman working at Target, living in the hood, wearing knock offs better than this chick, if that woman treats him right and truly loves him and is about HIM!
These Prada Princesses are killing me and they’re killing the reputation of the SBF’s out there.
I went to college, yes! I have a good job, yes! And, I’m very easy on the eyes (if I might say so myself) and I have recently walked away from a relationship that wasn’t working for me. Not because I was pretentious, not because he didn’t give me the world, but because sometimes, things just fall apart (The Roots).
Now, does that mean I have to dust off my single resume and put my best assets out there? No, that means I continue to be me. Funny, witty, smart, loveable and an around the way female, that knows how to hold her man down. I don’t set a certain standard (he has to make this, graduate from here, not been to jail, etc) on my men. I have things that are negotiable and non-negotiable and I date with an open mind.
I applaud the SBF’s out there that don’t feel they have to be the “Black Carrie Bradshaw’s” of the world. Carrie Bradshaw never felt she was entitled to a man because she wore gucci or because she went to an ivy league school. You never heard Carrie say “why can’t I find a man, I have this, or I have that, therefore I should have a man!” NOOOOOOO it was situation and a lot of GROWING UP that she had to do. What made her fabulous wasn’t what she had, it was because of who she was. C’mon Son, GTFOHWTBS, ladies! Be who you are, not what you got!
@Mahoganee,
Be who you are, not what you got!
I nominate a tee-shirt!!
The thing about a memoir is that is about a single person, while newspapers and blogs and the like try to make it about a whole demographic. When a white man writes a memoir about himself and small group of his friends, the blogs don’t erupt in debates about “he doesn’t speak for me!”
I could see if the book posed as some kind of self help guide for all black women. It’s a story, so take from it what you will. But you can’t attribute all these different agendas and perpectives to the author when you have not read the book. All these kneejerk responses based on one article a pretty premature.
@Dom, good point. I agree. It doesn’t even seem like this is a work of fiction or a self-help book…though I am wondering how this will get turned into a movie.
@Liz,
Tyler Perry and Oprah will pick it up
*rolls eyes*
@CPT Callamity,
“Why I Can’t Get Married”…?
@N.I.A. lovesthekids…,
Good one!
all reasons given would certainly prove helpful for any sister out here/there who even remotely considers helena andrews and herself to be kindred spirits. but there is just something point blank about number 5 which, although it made me laugh, cannot be denied.
also, her speaking of a winter boo might pose a problem if she expects for karma to sympathize with her.
I didn’t know Champs’ balls were out on parole. Welcome home!
@Triple Crown ^^^ ^^^ ^^^,
Shots fired
@Dorian G.,
You know I saw this earlier, but didn’t know what to do with this…
How are the F.I.N.E. newsletters going this week?
@miss t-lee,
Well you know its our holiday edition, so we’re trying to get a feature of F.I.N.E. brothas wearing holiday themed pics for the ladies. Leave your email and I’ll forward you a copy lol
@Dorian G.,
*snickering*
Only if they’re sportin’ red speedos…lol
@miss t-lee,
And santa hats baby girl, red speedos and santa hats
I just wish they(the chronically lonely) will quit complaining all the time. Often the complaints hinge on the missteps of men, but these women who are lonely need to look at other women for the reasons they are having a difficult time. I saw the best men of my generation destroyed by madness, and trifling females. Good guys ruined because the women they chose to love treated their kindness as if it was a weakness, and stepped out on them with cats like me.
The best advice that was given was “Change”. When a man sees that his approach in the romantic department is not giving him the results he desires he switches the game up.
@Legendary Dash, *dead* at the “Howl” reference
I’m just sick of all of us complaining ALL the time about how the other side “is doing US wrong”- blah blah blah blah… “successful women are too full of themselves” or “good men are intimidated by independent women”- who f*kin cares?. As young women/men, single-parent family or two-parent homes, you’re taught to be self-reliant and independent. So why are we surprised now that there’s a leveling of roles amongst us? All the “independant women” songs and isht are perpetuating it but that’s only cool to sing along with, right? So how come when a woman says “I’m independant” there’s an uproar from nut toating section? The truth is, women don’t WANT to be independent… I would love for one of ya’ll niqqas to go half on dis mortgage with a sista, or just pay it all I’m cool- but how many of ya’ll want to do that? And, if you do want to go half you don’t want me to talk about the half I’M putting in- we should act like you doin it by yourself(stupid egos).
Not to mention…times have changed… my parents are still together and when they got together the odds were in their favor… not so much for me today (divorce stats- you seen them). Everyone has option B no one is in it for the long haul. We just have to be WILLING to teach each other. We’re so quick to give up on each other… “she got a bad attitude” or “he’s full of himself”… a dialogue has got to start happening between us.
I ain’t sayin I agree with Helena’s attitude b/c I don’t, but I understand why she’s the way she is.
@Yeah…SO?!,
I can understand Helena’s attitude as well as yours or any other woman’s. In the department of finding good men, the odds suck for y’all. More black men are in jail than in college. There really aren’t a lot of educated black men to around. I know. I went to an HBCU were the ratio was 10 girls to every guy. That was nine years ago when I was a freshman. Ain’t no telling what it is now. I don’t mind a woman that is independent. Like I said in my post, with all of the opportunities women, hell, everyone, has nowadays to make it in this world, if you were independent, I would think something was wrong with you. There are men out there that are not intimidated by a strong, independent woman, but it’s almost 2010. Throwing it in our faces is annoying as f**k. Some of us automatically assume that about a woman based on her accomplishments. A lot of men don’t know how to handle or properly approach a woman like that because they are don’t have themselves together, and most women can smell that a mile away. Because I am draw to a woman’s independence, it gets that whole formality knowing what you do and what you have accomplished and I would be ready to get to the important stuff: what drives to success, what made you choose your profession, what motivated you in accomplishments. People say they want to know that stuff to see where a woman’s head is at. I would want to know that to see where her heart is at.
@ComicBookGuy, that made me feel some kinda way … downstairs.
@Yeah…SO?!,
*Gulps* lol
Just trying to be nice.
This subject is kinda dear to me because I am close to my mom, I got 5 sisters and my niece means the world to me. She is about to go off to college next year and I just want her to watch out for the idiots out there. Her mom says that as I am as long as I am my niece’s standard, we have nothing to worry about. Just watching guys trying to talk to women when I am out about, it makes me laugh and sad at the same time because y’all really have it hard out here. Ni99@s can be real dumb sometimes.
@ComicBookGuy, Before I get this room key(wink), I’ll say this… I think we both have it hard, but my point was that we got to stop pointing fingers.
@Yeah…SO?!,
Room key(wink)?
*Gulps again* lol
Yeah, we shouldn’t point fingers anymore. The playing field is a helluva lot more level than it was just 10 years ago. Men and women being more equal nowadays should stop men from being gentlemen to women and to young girls as well, be an example to them on how they should be respected. Also, a woman with class and carries herself as a lady is still the most attractive thing in the world. We need to embrace our strengths in each other like our ancestors did and not forget what they taught us about how to carry ourselves. That can speak more about you than any words you could ever say.
Sorry. There I go rambling again.
@ComicBookGuy, “should stop men from being gentlemen to women and to young girls”… you meant shouldn’t right?… I was almost set one wedding colors.- lol (two gulps)
@Yeah…SO?!,
Sorry about that.
Men and women being more equal nowadays SHOULDN’T stop men from being gentlemen to women and to young girls as well, be an example to them on how they should be respected.
The room key thing made me lost focus. lol
@ComicBookGuy, yeah, I know… I’m such a tease… until there’s a dik in my ear
@Yeah…SO?!,
O_O
Gotta love your honesty. lol
Did anyone consider the fact that she may be a bad lay??? Or possibly suffers from low self esteem???? This is one thing that I have learned, especially considering the fact that I am so far from the “commercial” woman. I mean, I wear a size 16-18… I’m 6 ft tall… I have a wide nose… didn’t get a bachelors degree until i was 27 years old…. I’m a single parent… But I am soooo content with myself, and I am content with my life… (and I dont mean a complacent content… but more of an “I’m o.k. with who I am” kind of content)
Some people strive for sucess, because that is what they want out of life…And some people strive for sucess to show others how sucessfull they can be. You can have every thing a person could ever want in life, and still feel like shyt on the inside. Just because you are beautiful, doesn’t = you feeling beautiful….. Just because you have money and status, doesn’t = you feeling rich…. Just because u can wear Victoria’s Secret doesn’t = u feeling sexy. I mean… Halle Berry is the epitome of this syndrome…. She can’t seem to keep a man to save her life. I think sometimes sucessfull women spend too much time looking for a resume’ instead of love. What is wrong with being with a man that simply makes you feel good…. A man will have the looks, money, status, sucess, and marry a dayum cocktail waitress… put her through college and live happily ever after. No one has a problem with that. He winds up with that woman, because she makes him feel good.. He is not worrying about what she is bringing to the “table”. Very rarely will you see a sucessful woman that is open to loving a man whos status in life does not match their own. Maybe she should try dating Marcus, the dude that reads the utility meters…. or Phil…. the resturant manager or James the artist…….
@Lanieanna,
Did anyone consider the fact that she may be a bad lay???
Ok, I just died!! died… Bwahahahaha! Ok let me finish.
@Lanieanna,
You are so right about the “cocktail waitress” point. I’ve seen it. That waitress or whatever her non-degree having self is bringing to the “table” is her joie de vivre, her sense of self-pride, her womanly self, her life intelligence! She feels good about herself and knows how to enjoy a man being a man for her. What man doesn’t love this? A man is smitten with a woman who not only makes him feel good but who feels good about herself. Amen and good night.
What can I say (without instantly growing tired with this broken record, dead horse issue), except, Good sh!t. I dig points 1-7 (especially 2 through 5).
“i do know that if “bitch is the new black“, “bitching about bitchy black women” is definitely the new crack, and i think its time for us to find a way to kick this addiction.”
Pookie had to kick the habit before he got merked. Give it a chance. It “might could” do you all (ladies and gents) some good. Paz
scary post.
I was just turned on to this blog by a FB friend. I think i’m hooked!! lol
Very insightful, 2 thumbs up.
@Steven in the ville, thanks, and welcome!
Ok, I’m a little slow. I’ve read this sentence over and over but not sure of it’s meaning. is it that women who are successful shouldn’t feel entitled to a great relationship? or is it women in general shouldn’t be entitled to a great relationship? what do you mean by this sentence? are we not to expect good things because we look good on paper? or are we not expected to have a great relationship at all? is this for the bitchy independent women? or all women? i’m a little confused by that sentence. i’m sure someone else might have talked about it in the comment but the replies on here… the sh1t is long. so i just wanted to ask.
@tiana suber, No one is entitled to a relationship, period. What you are entitled to is to be respected *if* you’re in a relationship. In other words, you’re not entitled to get through the front door, but if you do make it through the front door, you’re entitled to not be mistreated.
@Scipio Africanus,
thanks for making my point clearer
Both men and women need to determine why they feel they “need” their significant others to have certain credentials. For example, if as a woman I say my man needs to have a college degree, is it because I am looking for the finanicial security that only a job requiring a degree could offer? Hmm…aren’t their men out there who can offer this security who may not have a degree. Of course there is. If we start identifying the real reasons behind these expectations we may be more comfortable stepping outside of the dating box we have put ourselves in and still not feel like we’re settling.
@smanakins, I don’t know many (if any) degreeless men who can offer any kind of financial security unless they work in entertainment or sports, and even that can be flighty.
Let’s be real here and remember that this is still America, it’s tough getting anywhere without a degree, and if you’re Black, it’s tough getting anywhere even if you have an advanced degree. Do people without degrees find success? Of course, but I don’t think they are the majority or the rule out of their lot.
@Liz, I know it’s almost time for the next entry, but one of these days, Blacks have got to create a society where we don’t depend on non-Blacks to eat. Evidence fairly well shows that we are the only group with issues of our money leaving our circle the most immediately and that (this being partly the reason) we aren’t the providers of most of what we want and need in this world. That is also in turn what has us so afraid to be ourselves and in such deep financial and social trouble: because we’re so damn dependent on and obsessed with the thoughts of especially 2520.
i don’t know if anyone has mentioned this already….but oh well…
ladies take note of why chris rock gave NIA LONG, yes that nia long a fake phone number on purpose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyHi4FyfZ5o (safe for work)
ninja assassin *drools*
This was a good one. But the whole topic still baffles me…it’s not about sisters being successful and just wanting Idris (though my fantasies of him and my five fingers come (ahem) through in a pinch, but I digress (see what happens when yo mention Idris…). Back to business: I’m not married yet, but I have often acknowledged that I may be the Oprah of the crew, rich happy with multiple cuties on different continents (not exactly like Oprah, but…). I don’t know if I’m cut out for that whole marriage thing. I definitely like the idea, but that is because I grew up in America and that’s what I’m supposed to want (husband, kids, white picket fenced home…). But I feel your suggestions. I would offer, however, that NONE of us take that “bitch is the new black” crap to heart. There is enough drama in the world and manufacturing bitchiness just for the sake of it (or in hopes of hitting a NYT besllign home run) is just ridamndiculous!
@jem78,
But I feel your suggestions. I would offer, however, that NONE of us take that “bitch is the new black” crap to heart. There is enough drama in the world and manufacturing bitchiness just for the sake of it (or in hopes of hitting a NYT besllign home run) is just ridamndiculous!
i’d beg to differ. while i do think some of us use a bit of hyperbole to make our points (and sell books), there are some who really do take that as their personal creed
Option “Get like me” or #4 as Champ calls it is my motto. Some of my Helena-like friends need to follow this one rule. They are so stuck on income and credentials that they miss good men. That bracket of men with those credentials and income is small and they have less incentive to be monogamous. I think if we focus more of the substance of ourselves as people and value that in others we’ll be less likely to pursue relationships that look good on paper. I don’t understand the desperation for these resume relationships. TLC told ya don’t go chasing waterfalls…
@Rapture,
TLC told ya don’t go chasing waterfalls…
lol, i dont know if i’d take relationship advice from someone who burned down her boyfriend’s crib, but i get your point
Let me add my two cents real quick. Getting the day started a bit late due meetings and 4 hours of empty rhetoric.
Champ, I think this is the issue of our time! I attend predominantly all white university—NYU and I participate in all black grad association events (with all 100 of us black grad students) and I must say that I am suffering from this “single black women can’t find a good black man fatigue”. Forgive me if someone has said this already but if I had a dollar for all the times I have hear this in grad school, I would be able to pay my student loans back.
It is rare I hear the humble women, who are genuinely ready to be in a relationship, saying this. Maybe it is because they are in relationships and do not have problem finding a man.
I just seems that these women are so self absorbed and narcissistic that they wouldn’t want to be in a serious relationship if the opportunity was presented to them anyway. I am just tired of this, “I can’t find a man of my caliber” rhetoric. Like who the F@!k are you! Do you want a man or business partner? How about expand your search ladies? I am quite sure guys with trades, or technical jobs exist. But wait, it’s not glamorous enough to tell your friends about. I hear this crap on a daily basis and I am sick of it. Tone it down a few notches, exhibit some emotional intelligence and humility, then maybe you will not be plagued by loneliness.
@xave,
Also a black NYU grad student, and I’ve only been to one ‘grad students of color happy hour,’ and can’t say I agree with you. Maybe you’re at Stern or something, but I thought that the few ladies I met seemed pretty down-to-earth.
I think you’re being too hard on them. Even when certain women say things like ‘I want a man who fits my X criteria’ I’ve found they rarely mean it.
@InvisibleManNakedCity, I’m at every social. They are cool with you and I, but what about the brother who is not in Grad school but working hard? They deserve to be lonely in all honesty if they are so hung up the material. I mean, security is one thing but wanting to tout a man like he is a YSL bag for status purposes is not only sickening but also disheartening. It truly speaks to our decaying society.
Then they say things they don’t mean! I am independent but are fixated on a man’s earning potential. Aren’t those competing ideologies that are inconsistent? That’s why I love my girl. She could care less! she can get her own Sh!t.
Lets be honest, I understand the desire for a person that may engage you intellectually; however, a JD, MPA, MBA or Ph.D doesn’t guarantee this! I get the yearn for economic capital, but what about cultural, and spiritual capital?
Ladies, GROW UP!
@xave, Got- DANG! Everyone(the men) is going in so hard on this topic… maybe it’s my lack of an external baby muscle, but her article didn’t seem THAT bad.
@Yeah…SO?!, I can’t stand her type! in their man hating circles man bashing. Then when they see guys like myself and many of the brothers whom subscribe to this blog they say, “it’s so refreshing to meet positive black men”. Like I should be behind some glass! like i’m an endangered species. Come one, think about all the women you know with personalities, compassion and genuine love for people, are they saying they can’t find a man? Hell no! I was at NYU the other day and some chick said this Bull Ish to me the other day. I was so pissed. I significant number of the dudes I grew up with who are doing quite well for themselves are in construction management and didn’t attend college or an ivy league school, so they don’t get a chance? Which man is going to truly like a women who doesn’t like him for him?
You are going to like me because of what i represent! Piss off! Like i am a Gucci bag or some superfluous sh!t. That’s why Hakeem left Zamunda! (I had to find a way to reference Coming to AMerica).
Unless you are from blood line of Kings and Queens and living in a monarchy, F@!k out of here with that sh!t.
@xave, Coming to America references are always a crowd pleaser…
NEway- Ur right, that “holier than thou” attitude is nonesense, but don’t let that steal your joy… it’s their loss not yours (or your homeboys’)!… plus eryone knows that guys in construction are actually in the mafia. lol (I know that was stupid, but it started to feel like a after school program message- yuck)
@xave, real talk like the day these chicks were filling out the apps for grad school its like they had the intention of getting accepted and dissing anybody who didnt get in…look i been to the ivy been to the HBCU been to the big state schools Im not impressed by unimpressive people whatever institution they hale from, besides the most laid back yet on point ppl you will ever meet often didnt finish school or if they did, they may do work that is not the fliest but hey they are employed and tend to be high on personality…….let it be enuf that they can see past yo stank ass
@Blacklaw, Man, do i disdain these “Helena Andrew” chicks! I say F*^k em! They are so independent and don’t need a man, but when it boils down, their existence is meaningless without companionship. Shocking. They need to relax, while amassing wealth, credentials and status, amass a some f@cking personality and maybe someone will like their stanking a$$$.
Damn this is one that always irked me.
Maybe she should stop going to clubs in the hood, realize that ‘grown-and-sexy’ is just slang for ‘boug-ghetto negros’ and then the successful black men will find her. I’m not trying to be elitist (actually I am), but come on if you’re serious about growing the black middle class you gotta change your whole lifestyle.
Like if you go to Columbia what’re you doing still going to clubs on 140th? If you go to Princeton, what the hell reason do you have to be in Camden?
But whatever, it’s not just the women. I went to a state school, and you could definitely tell the suburban dudes from the hood dudes, and I can tell you that most of the suburban dudes (excluding yours truly) where not getting the attention of any of our suburban sistas who would generally just hang out with the hood dudes from Newark, Trenton, etc. I can guarantee you that most of those suburban dudes, when they graduate have an even worst complex about their attractiveness to black women. So they’d probably not be too quick to approach them for the rest of their lives.
@InvisibleManNakedCity, “realize that ‘grown-and-sexy’ is just slang for ‘boug-ghetto negros’ and then the successful black men will find her”… so true. “Like if you go to Columbia what’re you doing still going to clubs on 140th?”- I peed a lil.
You know your post brings us to another importante issue… stuck-up chiks love thugs! It’s a catch22.
@InvisibleManNakedCity, Just to clarify too… not that ivy league types can’t party in the hood, but if you looking for your equal chances are slim you gonna find them there.
@InvisibleManNakedCity, Sound like Rutgers to me
Love the blog, have been a lurker for some time and appreciate your sensitive take on the topic. I am reposting my comment from Single Black Male yesterday as I think this group needs it as well.
Please stop believing that the gospel according to random individuals (i.e., Helena Andrews, Steve Harvey) is the gospel! As a psychologist, professor and researcher, I get TIRED of all this nonsense being perpetrated as truth when it comes to Black men and women. The issues between black men and women are too complex, too layered and too nuanced to be simplistically reduced to the angry black women myth or any other myth for that matter. Are there Black women who are angry? Sure! Are there Black men who are trifling? Absolutely! In general, Black people have tons of issues. However, those who are qualified to speak regarding relationship issues in the Black community (i.e., licensed therapists/counselors) will tell you that relationship issues aren’t that simple! If you want to understand the true nature of these relationships, get an INFORMED opinion from someone who has either conducted research in this area or has a clinical practice. Please stop believing that these random people know the truth and perpetuate harmful stereotypes when they can only speak to their experiences, which are not the norm for the majority of black people.
@blackprof, I think in a piecemeal way this was said by others but I like how u put in a succinct paragraph…..well played
@blackprof,
I disagree. First, because I don’t think we need ‘qualified experts’ to realize there is a problem and talk about it. I don’t think anyone assumes these people making these comments are authorities, and if they did assume that some random lady was an authority, nothing you say could get to them. And besides that, I’ve tried to read some psychological papers, they’re pretty tough to get through! Next thing I know you’ll be saying that I can’t talk about black men in prison without reading Foucault!
Second, I don’t think there really is ‘the Truth.’ Like you said, the relationships between black men and women are complicated, just like all relationships. However, if there was any ‘Truth’ to be found, I’m sure psychologist have yet to see it. I don’t think it’s a doubt that Helena is not in any position to speak for all young black female professionals, but don’t you agree that she has some things to say which are worth talking about by those who aren’t trained in psychological exegesis?
@InvisibleManNakedCity,
The way the press is playing this book and author, you would think she is an “expert” on relationship issues. I agree that we don’t need qualified experts to “discuss” a problem but most folks lack the perspective to “address” the problem. Sure, she (and everyone else who dates) has some things to say that might be worth talking about. My issue is that her perspective has become the dominant conversation in popular culture. This is one woman’s opinion about her dating experience, but when newspapers (i.e., Washington Post) and blogs (this one) have over 400 comments about her “ideas”, her opinion has become grossly exaggerated.
Chalk it up to my scientific training, but I am personally sick of seeing popular fluff dominate conversations. If we are going to have a “relationship conversation” about the Black community, I want to see some facts (not opinions) based on scientific research. Black folks are not monolithic so unless we understand this issue as it relates to all Black folks (which can be done with good research), we will continue listening to “opinions” that can’t define the problem thereby preventing real solutions.
@blackprof, I agree with what you’re saying… and I’m looking forward to your book coming out.
@blackprof,
Cosign. Pop Psychology hurts folks more then they know.
I’m getting my PhD in Clinical Psych at Howard. Any advice?
@Shay,
What are you career goals, the academy or clinical practice?
@blackprof,
I’m a first year, so it may change, but I envision it going along the lines of:
1. Graduate.
2. Post-doctoral and licensure.
3. Research Position until I burn out with some simultaneous pro bono work at a mental health clinic or something like that. I’m interested in Spirituality and the Mind, minority health and health disparities, and I’m kicking around some ideas about interracial relationships and racial identity.
4. Academia and passing on the knowledge that my mentors have instilled in me until I’m old and gray. If I could work part time in a private practice, I would probably juggle that as well.
Which discipline of psychology do you specialize in, if you don’t mind me asking?
@Shay,
I am in Dev Psych and you have some great faculty at Howard, take advantage of that!
My tips – 1) learn the game so you can play it to your advantage and 2) publish, publish, publish! The publishing sounds cliche but the bar keeps getting raised so if you want to land a good postdoc/academic job, you have to have the pubs. A new prof in my dept came from a postdoc with 10 publications! Talk to your mentors and others since you are just starting so you can put yourself in a good position now.
@blackprof,
welcome and sh*t
Been married for 9 years with the wifey for 4 years prior to that no breakups and let me say that if she carried that “bitchy” attitude the way Andrews does we would have never went out. I also think women need to get over this not cooking thing, some of y’all wear that like a feminist badge of honor not realizing that someone has to cook especially if you plan on having kids. Certainly the man needs to do his fair share but I’ll just say that’s a plus in just about any man’s book if you can burn a little, and trust me just making the effort goes a long way. Finally, look for someone in college there won’t be a better place to meet as many eligible, intelligent brothas as an HBCU.
I <3 <3 <3 #1. A man don't give a damn about your ivy league MBA if he can't stand to look at you. I must say, I am pretty tired of hearing this "why are black women single" diatribe, but you hit the nail on the head with this post.
@Britt, She isn’t even cute. I wouldn’t date her! Even if she didn’t speak. She needs to scale down her expectations maybe. Marginal looking chick, with no personality, and no humility equals lonely!
This is one successful guy that will pass on her.
@xave, Yup. I tell one girlfriend in particular all the time, pull what you can pull and work within that. It is not helpful at all to wish and hope and want in the dating realm. You have to deal in reality.
@champ GREAT post…I was inspired to shoot a quick video blog about it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1QElbYkPxY) – work place safe!
@blackprof, I would luv to see more facts versus rhetoric, I’m working on something.
@Jaybilal, I’m married for same # of yrs, you’re speaking the truth!
@Britt, i’ve got one more diatribe for you (see video above).
@xave, agreed on the scale down of expectations, this is key.
@Paul Carrick Brunson, Loved the video. Interesting perspective. Just have to make sure the investment is worth it
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@Paul Carrick Brunson,
welcome and sh*t, and thanks for the spam. i havent had any in a while, and i forgot how it tastes
@The Champ,
no disrespect fam – I was really tryin to add to the convo. thanks for the welcome.
honestly, i just want my man not to be butt ugly, have all his teeth, and doesn’t have dreams of being a 40 year old rapper or nba star, oh and good hygiene. he doesn’t have to have the finer things in life just as long he doesn’t look a hot mess! but if he does then that’s not a problem too!
all that “i’m an independent woman bitches” crap is dumb once you figure you have no one to share it with.
@tiana, All due respect, this is what ALL (intentional hyperbole) women say they want. To let most women tell it, hardly anyone really cares about looks. That doesn’t match my observations.
“she’s single because we (black men) need to step our games up” <— one possibility you failed to place enough emphasis on…lol.
Great post && as a single young black woman I can say that the blame lies on both the men && the women. Or maybe just fate? I don't know if it's always been like this but it seems like a lot of men (&& a good number of women) in my generation aren't really interested in marriage or any type of long term commitment. Maybe it's just because we're still "young" but to me it just seems live everyone has given up on the idea of finding someone you want to spend the rest of your life with. I think for the women, it's especially frustrating because a lot of us do want to be in a serious relationship but guys don't want to and for good reason…. I'm talking about college here && if I was a guy I probably wouldn't want to settle down right now either… I mean here you are a black man in college and there's like 30 black women per 1 black man, plus all the asian, white, and latina women who are attracted to black men (&& more sexually open). It just gets to a point where you feel like there's no hope.
I know that at nineteen years old I probably shouldn't be worrying this much but there was a time where I wanted to be married by 21 and now I have to come to terms with reality and realizing that most likely won't happen for so many reaons (much deeper and wider than what i mentioned above).
@AnonyMiss,
how old are you now?
Alot of black women seem to really not get #5. I think that’s at the root of complaining and moaning. Men find out slowly between the ages of about 12 and maybe 22 that we’re not entitled to anything regarding dating whom we want to date. We learn that rejection is a real part of life and that we shouldn’t let it overtake us.
Unfortunately for women, because of gender roles, they don’t have as much practice at being the Applicant, only the Reviewer. Applicants know that you get turned down alot, and they get used to it, or at least try get used to it, or at the very least know that they’re *supposed* to get used to it, even if they aren’t.
UGHHH.. This depresses me to read all this crap!!! Black women who are probably posting their hearts away are probably lonely & single!! Yes, you!! Are you serious .. “for now my puppy, degree and job will do” UGH .. I want to vomit in my mouth!! Stop trying to attack Andrews for keeping it real about the psychie of the black woman! Please stop.. you can hide but she is totally accurate with her observations.. I’m not saying she is right..& it is something to admire..but at the end of the day — it is TRUE! Black women are bitches for NO reason! & she is one of them..who proudly accepted her name.. Who gives a sh!t about Oprah and Condi..you think that job can keep them happy ..deep down ..Oprah wishes she had a family to take care.. GET OFF THIS INDEPENDENT WOMAN BULLSHIT LADIES!!
@BlackSapphire, sounds like you have some hate in your heart that needs to be let out lol.
@BlackSapphire,
welcome and sh*t, and dont hold back so much the next time you come. tell us how you really feel
Helena will die alone. A degree and job does not make you God. Move along folks, nothing to see here.
@Don, harsh.
@Liz, Life is harsh. Having a super attitude is not going to help you get a man, black/white/purple.
Unless she gets some implants, she’ll have to wait another 10 years and then become a Cougar. A 40 year old woman that lets 21 year old guys kong them at 1 hour hotels. Oh it’s real.
single is not equivocal to lonely, once most women get that they’ll start enjoying life as is… and when the men come along they won’t be all desperate and shit.
ninamayers.wordpress.com
@Nims,
welcome and sh*t, and way to use equivocal
@The Champ, thanks and sh*t…am working on my vocab
Interestingly….my brother (you could consider him most black womens’ IBM: graduated Cooper Union for Architecture & Egineering, is 29 with no children, chocolate, handsome, cut physique but not too bulky, can dance, can write a mean thesis, perfectly locked hair, perfect diction, white teeth and working as a Junior Architect in NYC) saw that I was becoming this type of girl while I was in college and he told me flat out…
“you’re not what most men want, so if you want a relationship where you are happy, you will need to come correct; drop the attitude, be open minded and creative, be honest and stop the games and most of all (this is where every other woman surpass black women) let a man be a man”
So, three years ago I decided that I was going to get on my spanish girl…..learn how to please a man in EVERY way. I got into a relationship for 1.5 years where I cooked almost every night, handled my career, did his laundry, cleaned OUR apt!!!
So yes, my bro’s advice was solid but it will only attractive ONE type of man as well. MY advice would be (having tried both methods), as cliche as it sounds, be yourself and be true to your own needs. Its not all about finding that IBM and keeping him happy; because if it was I would still be involved- neither here nor there. It’s truly about finding a mate who shares your ideals and rationalizes in the same manner that you do. It’s not about doing all his chores and becoming less independent and more of a servant; if it was then highly domesticated ladies wouldn’t be so miserable. It’s about knowing how to chose your battles, knowing when to massage his ego (and his manhood), knowing when to be his pornstar, college buddy, his counselor AND his accountant. The word is FLEXIBILITY. This is what I truly believe ALL well balanced black men want. They want career driven women who know when to let loose, know how to please them- and aren’t prude about it, and knows when to hang back and be a silent force in the relationship, especially when its his cue to step into the spotlight and be the Patriarch.
So CHAMP….am I right?
@Jackie,
So CHAMP….am I right?
nope.
jk. you made some good points and sh*t
@Jackie,
Damn…this is also a damn good way for us men to treat yall women. Good stuff.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head, especially the parts about entitlement and our unwillingness to “date out”. I wrote a post on why I think so many fabulous Black women are lonely: http://crazygirlnation.com/2009/12/why-so-many-fabulous-black-women-are-lonely/
and one on 20 reasons Black women avoid interracial dating: http://crazygirlnation.com/2009/12/why-black-women-avoid-interracial-dating/
Hello All….(I’m a newbie)
Perhaps some of the problems these women have is not realizing when they have a good man.
A good man may be between jobs.
Translation: He can hang in there when things get tough, and will support you when one day you are between jobs.
A good man may have had a previous relationship that resulted in a few kids that he loves to death and would move the Earth for.
Translation: He will love the kids you have or the kids you will have.
A good man may have a little baggage.
Translation: He can accept your baggage and you can help each other move forward from that baggage.
A good man may not look like Idris.
Translation: When he looks at you and you know he loves you and would do anything for you….He will look better than Idris.
A good man may not be perfect….
Translation: YOU ARE NOT PERFECT!!!!
Morale of this post….
YOUR ASS IS NOT PERFECT!
How do I know?
I am divorced, have a few extra pounds to lose, did not finish my degree (working on it online after work) have three children (one from my first serious relationship, two from my marriage) and have my share of baggage. I love the black man with my heart and soul. I have a good man!
My man loves and care for my kids like his own. He loves, respects and cares for me like I am his world. I love him for all of this and I treat him like a king. I am loving, considerate, and enjoy cooking. I am attentive to the needs of my man simply because I love him and want him to be happy. I AM DEFINITELY NOT PERFECT and I knew this….so, I never expected my man to be perfect.
*getting of my soapbox now, sorry if I was rambling, thanks for listening*
I’m late as hell…but…man…
All I gotta say is…our attitudes towards each other are killing us. Women and men are competing to see who is the most “white collar/corporate” person. I know this won’t be easy to communicate to folks that won’t examine themselves…everybody with a degree has a need to live like “educated African Americans”. And there is no foundation to the class they’re trying to belong to. Bottom line…it’s based on trying to be white…you want the american dream…and it is not a reality. This lifestyle that so many desire is based on lies, deception, and manipulation. And you can’t stop that corporate bullshat from spilling over into your personal life. You want me to use “proper” english and 30 seconds into the conversation…you ask…”and what do you do”? Come on lady…can we laugh at something first? Yeah…I got two degrees and a good job…but we ain’t about to start paying each other’s bills? WTF?
Anyway…been through the whole black woman spectrum. From high school drop outs to phd’s. Honestly…no really…all bullshit aside…some of yall “educated” sisters need to pay attention to your working class sisters. The majority of them do not have the same issues that you have…AND they do not allow themselves to be disrespected. They do shat becasue they enjoy doing it…and they don’t feel “pressure” to get behind some damm american dream. Hell…they left corporate america to get rid of that stress. (I’m on my way out this batch too come June) They are having a ball and want to laugh uncontrollably…know exactly where to find the strongest cheapest drinks and gooood food…they are in the gym…they are fine as hell…and they don’t give a damn about a stranger’s resume and how much money he makes. They are too concerned with enjoying life to be worried about that. I’m getting pissed off the more I type…and I’m scared to listen to old girl responsible for this topic…i might come back and act a damm monkey.
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