“emotional” cheating. the ultimate oxymoron
Larry: Is he good?
Anna: Don’t do this.
Larry: Just answer the question! Is he good?
Anna: Yes.
Larry: Better than me?
Anna: Different.
Larry: Better????
This (censored) script from a scene in the surprisingly rewatchable 2004 film “Closer”, where Clive Owen’s character (Larry) just found out that his wife (Anna, played by Julia Roberts) had been cheating, perfectly encapsulates a typical man’s feelings about his woman “stepping out”.
Despite whatever nuance we might possess, when speaking of infidelity, we are excessively concrete sequential. In our minds, intention is basically a complete non-entity when compared to actual action. We generally care less about where she met the guy or if they have more of a “connection” than we did or even how long it’s been going on. If you notice, nowhere in the script cited above or below does Larry ask “Do you love him“.
Asking a man whether or not there’s a difference between physical and emotional cheating is akin to asking him whether or not there’s a difference between bananas and Santa Claus. You can’t compare and contrast two entities when one of them doesn’t exist.
Infidelity starts with contact and not a moment before, a fact which makes “emotional cheating” the ultimate oxymoron. There’s no gray here, no “almosts” or “maybe, but not quites“. You can’t breach the no cheating portion of the relationship contract unless there’s physical contact.
There are various reasons for this line of thinking, all basically stemming from the fact that our paramount, our primary, our most primal concern has nothing to do with anything else but penises…his VS ours. Did you climax? How many times? How many times did you sleep with him? Is his bigger than mine? For us, nothing else matters, regardless of how intensely you’ve been “connecting” with him over yahoo messenger at midnight for weeks.
Larry: Do you enjoy it?
Anna: Yes!
Larry: You like his c–k?
Anna: I love it!
Larry: That’s the spirit. Thank you. Thank you for your honesty. Now f–k off and die, you f—d up slag.
*I’ve never been cheated on. Well, lemme rephrase that…I’m approximately 82 percent sure that I’ve never been cheated on. But, if I ever was, I’m definitely stealing the “effed up slag” line, even though I have absolutely no idea what the hell it means*
–the champ
39 comments
Girls say its worse for a man to emotionally cheat than to go bang a random broad. I think it’s worse for your man to be fantasizing about another chick while he is doing you. But all cheating…even if its letting another woman feed you…is bad. Because women don’t like when another woman is doing their job, period. Laundry, back rubs, talking, dirty sanchezes…whatever teh job may be.
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I couldn’t disagree more. Cheating is doing anything with a woman that you know your girlfriend would be hurt by/call into question your commitment or dedication to her. Period.
And last time I checked, the last Lombardi trophy resides in New York, “Champ.”
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donnamarie: that’s a point where we (men and women) typically differ. as long as the woman didn’t act on whatever fantasy was in her head, if she’s still with us and we’re still getting our, ummmm, “physical needs” met, we can care less
Jh: so, if your woman has an issue with a lunch meeting you’re having with a female colleague, that’s considered cheating? there has to be a distinction made between insecurity and actual action. without it you’ll be perpetually handcuffed, or, better yet, “christied”.
Oh, and btw, you get a three year window with the “champ” thing.
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I am in total DISagreement with you. not to get all Holy roller on you, but the sin is in the thought. Yes, I said it and trust me I am not the one to be quoting scripture but it is true. The SIN is in the thought. Let me paint a hypothetical for you: You and I are in a relationship,(whatever you call it when we have agreed that you will not have sex or share INIMACY’s with others) , and I befriend the new guy at work and the new guy at work is attractive and we start going out to lunch regularly and I unload on him all of my pain in our “relationship” and tell him things that I can’t tell you because A. you stopped listening, B. you could care less C. You have been too busy, too tired lately etc. So this co worker and I are now sharing intimacy’s and one day while at home I decide to pleasure myself and the whole while I am thinking about my coworker and totally get off… Guess what I cheated on you. Multiple times, and have been cheating on you. It started the moment I shared intimacy’s with my coworker and didn’t share them with you(regardless of the reason I didn’t share them with you) {Hypothetical Over}. Maybe you don’t care that I am sharing them with him and you don’t see it that way but trust me when I tell you, every married woman who’s husband has shared intimacies with me (like the lack of sex in their relationship, or how he doesnt like how she disciplines the children, or that their marriage is cold…you get the picture) and taken me out to lunch/dinner and offered to fly me here and there would not be too pleased to hear that their husband is sharing INTIMACY’s with me never mind a meal or offering to fly me anywhere. Its not about sex. Its about INTIMACY, of which sex can be a product. And there is the ultimate difference with men and women
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yeah man…you’re totally offbase.
“closer” is NOWHERE near re-watchable.
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ChocolateGirlWonder {April 7th, 2008 at 4:47 pm}
That particular scene is DEFINITELY rewatchable…
I love the part where he screams “I’m a fucking caveman!”
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calina {April 8th, 2008 at 12:29 am}
YES!!!! I’m a fucking Cavewoman!!!!
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Yeah.. dude.. if you’ve never been cheated on, then you can’t make such insistant declarations on what the definition should be. Emotional cheating doesnt seem real until it effects you. If you’re caught on the shit end of the stick, you want to know everything you possibly could. God forbid you love the person, then cheating takes on whole new dimensions.
Have you ever cheated? You might want to have a pow wow with a few tried and true cheaters before you take a soapbox stance on the intricate levels of relationships there are in this world.
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let me reitrate once more, Closer sucks ass.
anyway, i actually do think that emotional cheating is something men care about too. at least i know i’d care. i think it’s totally possible to have sex with somebody and feel no type of emotional connection. they’re basically a vessel for your jollies. then you can go home to your wife that you still love.
granted, i don’t recommend that behavior but its possible. and if my wife were to do that, i’d be pissed.
caveat though…i dont think women are capable of no-strings-attached jollies. they say they are but they ain’t. in fact, very rarely have i come across a woman who is who she claims to be in terms of stuff like that.
sheesh, hit a chick off ONE TIME and she never stops calling.
um…or so they say.
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Ana: question: if cheating begins at the thought, then when exactly are you supposed to make the “cheating determination”? according to your comment, if I happen to fantasize about stacey dash while I’m in a relationship, I’m immediately branded as a cheater
p: I think I just like watching brits curse. oh, and ms. portman too, even if she probably weighs less than my thigh
jess: i’ve tried. really, I have, but I just can’t conjure up any scenario where I’d be devastated by an emotional cheater. I just can’t fathom it
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calina {April 8th, 2008 at 12:34 am}
I really think you have to have it happen to you…ya can’t conjure up this scenario… I’m an “emotionally cheater” and it is bad….I’ll put it like this…if your stance is, men are “cool” with it, then you would not have a problem if your girl said a guy’s name (an attainable guy or one of your friend’s name) if you were having sex with her? What if she needed to imagine the other guy to get off and let you know that…that would suck…
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I was taking it back to he bible as a point of reference, the difference with your delusion with Stacey Dash is that its just that your delusion. Stacey Dash is not sharing anything with you (hate to break it to you ), but she probably doesn’t know you exist. The cheating begins once you disclose intimacy, and continues as you share intimacy. So if you and Stacey were chatting it up on IM til 3am every night, sharing intimacies and flirting with one another and then you are fantasizing about her while engaged with the woman you are in a relationship with then you are cheating, you been cheating . My point is you start cheating at the point you share intimacy with another person, a person other than the one you are supposed to.
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Yes. It is considered cheating if you know beforehand that your girl will have a problem with it. I think we need to completely open up the spectrum on what cheating is. Any level of an intentional betrayal of your mate’s trust is cheating. Period. Even if you think they are way off base, ultra-sensitive/insecure or just plain old crazy, it doesn’t change the fact that your actions will hurt them. Especially if you know they will be hurt and do it anyways. I think we often deal with people in terms of how we feel that SHOULD act or SHOULD feel about a situation and ignore how they ACTUALLY feel. Regardless of the reason, if you know have lunch with a chick will hurt your girl and you do it anyway, you are a DOUCHE.
And I’m calling BS on that three-year-window argument. So you’re saying that the Miami Heat and the Florida Gators (b-ball) have any claim to that title?
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If you don’t know any women that are capable of having no-strings attached sex, let me be your first. I’ve had plenty of physical relationships. And to be honest, all the cheating I’ve done before have been purely physical as well. I don’t NOT catch feelings for ALL of them. But more often than not, it was the men who caught feelings for me. It might be time to rewrite the stereotypes.
I have a working theory that all cheating can be emotionless, regardless of gender, until the person falls into true love; that’s when everything shifts perspective and morals start coming into play, that’s when women stop “fucking like men” and men stop fucking like dogs.
Maybe it’s just the people we’re friends with, maybe it’s just the non-committal environment we grew up in, or maybe it’s because we were “raised” by scumbag men… but yes, we women do it. We just don’t tell you we do it. Because it makes us sluts, especially to the eyes of the men in our beds.
For a long time, I considered anything genital cheating, nothing before that. Making out and titty grabbing was whatever. I found it more of a test of strength to go that far and still say no to the hand job, blow job, quickie, etc.
I dont know, things changed when I got into a real relationship and my heart opened. I agree with Jarrod at this point; if you do something that you know will compromise your relationship and do it ANYWAY, it’s cheating. If you’re minimizing windows and hiding text messages… it’s not officially in the zone, but it’s building up to the physical act of cheating. The TRUST is still marred. If you caught your girl having intimate ass conversations with another dude online, but she hasn’t made the trip to fuck him yet, money has it you’ll stay with her, but will be looking at her sideways every time she’s online and giggling.
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Ana: see, to me that’s “slippery slope” behavior. you’re close to it, but not quite there. the distinction lies in the fact that, at the “emotional” cheating point, in my mind the relationship is still salvagable. Once it steps into the physical plane though, its a wrap
Jh: your argument completely takes rationality out of the equation. I do agree that intentionally doing things that you know will hurt your mate is foul, but, at the same time, you hafta be somewhat reasonable. if someones mate is all verkempt over a lunch date, they need to get the fuck over themselves. you can’t become a prisoner to your mates perception
and, ummm, you’re allowed to keep the throne as long as your team is somewhat competitive during that window.
jess: your comment actually argues my point. you’re right, a blatantly disrespectful act like that might be BUILDING UP to the cheating tree, but its still not actually there. to me its akin to pregnancy. there’s no “almost pregnant”. sure, you might have done something that could have possibly caused a pregnancy, but either you are, or you aren’t.
Maybe my argument is more semantic based than anything else
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Haha, damn. It’s been pointed out before that I always sound like I’m agreeing when arguing, and vice versa. My bad.
I’m saying if the trust is marred, then the damage is done. You can’t ever really go back to the way you were. it ruined that very important aspect of.. well, any relationship. Would you want to be in one where you’re suspicious all the time? Would you ever be able to trust her? If the answer is ultimately going to be no, why wouldn’t you break up with her now, instead of later, since it is inevitable anyway?
Many women will argue that the separation between emotional and physical cheating isn’t necessarily that one leads up to the other, the “intent”. They can be two completely separate things. Are you assuming that all women who get caught “emotionally” cheating were simply caught sneaking out the door on her way to a bed?
All cheating is selfish.. women need non-sexual validations, you know.
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the problem is you are thinking like a man…some emotional cheating is salvageable, just like some physical cheating is salvageable (apparently not for you though) but for some women emotional carries more weight. Like I might forgive you for cheatin’ on me with some random trick cause I wouldnt get your rocks off the way you wanted me to, but when you are giving your time and effort to someone else, giving them something you are scared to give me or wont…that is harder to come back from. What it boils down to is this, (Like Jarrod said previously)if you cant look at your woman and tell her you went to lunch with a female colleague or a female friend because you feel guilty about the “intent” of your relationship with that colleague/female friend, that is emotional cheating. Which is why the sin is in the thought. It has very little to do with other’s perception and all to do with your intent.
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jess: i agree with what you’re saying about trust, but again, i cant say that two things (emotional and physical cheating) are “separate” if one of them doesnt even exist
ana: “the problem is you are thinking like a man”
lol, this is a problem?
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calina {April 8th, 2008 at 12:38 am}
hahahahaha, classic…silly men..stop thinking!
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I’m starting to think that you don’t believe what you wrote and are just saying all of this to have an argument.
Ummmm, since when are women’s emotions rational?
Like I said before, you are dealing with this issue in the realm of how they SHOULD react. Not how they ACTUALLY do react. It doesn’t matter if you feel like she’s being stupid/irrational in being hurt by you having lunch. The only thing that matters is that she IS hurt. So you either stop seeing her because she’s being overly sensitive and irrational (in which case, you might want to give up on woman entirely and bat for the other team) or accept the fact that you’re an asshole for having lunch with the chick she doesn’t like.
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THE CHAMP IS BACK!!! WELL SAID BOSS!!
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jh: this is the main point i’m trying to convey.
maybe going to eat with the work chick is insensitive. maybe it’s inconsiderate, considering the type of chick you have at home. you actually just might be an asshole. you are NOT a cheater though, regardless of whoever might perceive you to be one.
if a person equates a simple lunch encounter with simple lunch coitus, they’re wrong, regardless of how they “feel”
ben b: thanks for the welcome and the compliment and shit
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First allow me to say….bout time y’all two got together and did something like this!
Okay on to the topic. Closer is probably the best movie that I’ll never watch again. I mean it is THAT uncomfortable….and so is this topic.
I pretty much agree with your sentiments on the issue. My emotional subset….I guess it’s just rudimentary at best….I don’t know, but I’m guessing I’m not alone….that’s why I gave up trying to understand the rhyme and reason behind women’s reactions to things because by and large they are rooted in emotions, a topic I can’t even pretend to relate to….
And with that I just bought myself 6 more months of celibacy…
Anyway, gotta say again, glad y’all made the site….I’ll visit as often as possible!
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killa: glad that you could make it. makes me feel good that I’m not the only one here who’s been around long enough to remember the havoc boards and shit, lol
you know, I hated….wait, I LOATHED “closer” the first time I saw it. I even refered to it as “one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind” once. a female friend convinced me to give it another try, but with “softer” eyes, and eventually it grew on me. the language more than the actual storyline
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This is an interesting topic, “emotional cheating”. I agree that once the trust factor is diminished, the damage is done. Any evidence that the person with which I’m in a relationship wants to be with someone else is damaging. It just creates insecurity. And it’s true, that the sin is in the thought as well as the action.
Closer was hard to watch, but I liked the soundtrack. I’m a Julia fan, and I like Natalie as well. Watching their characters compete was quite entertaining.
Sometimes I miss the havoc boards but I don’t think they missed me
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if there was ever a movie that made me want to stab people it would be “closer” followed closely (no pun intended) by “straight out of brooklyn”.
though julia roberts lookededed so good in it.
onye - saying the sin is in the thought is twofold for me. like, if i see halle berry and i want to schlump her, i did nothing wrong. however, like was said, if i was trading quet nothings with her and gently stroking her hair then that’d be a problem. only because she was in my house which means i’m TOTALLY gonna knock the stuffin’ off that english muffin. word to ice cube.
hmm…i have no point here.
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Man, y’all need to get some “October Madness” goin’ on in this piece!! A beauty tournament is long overdo..lol!!
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I loved the movie Closer, and particularly that scene. I think it may have been because I liked hearing Clive Owens say the word ” cock ” but either way, I found it thoroughly enjoyable.
I had a conversation with my then-boyfriend after watching this movie about this exact topic. What were our ideas of cheating? Was it considered ” stepping out ” on the relationship if one party engaged in an emotional connection with someone else? Is kissing and touching other people okay so long as it doesn’t lead to sex? That was years ago, and I don’t remember where he stood. But I am how I’ve always been; any cheating, no matter what shape or form, is wrong.
I once read that a woman’s heart is like an ocean. I use the term ” read ” loosely, cause I may have heard it in a movie, but read just seemed more appropriate. I feel like, if you’re letting someone hop in a paddle boat and scale your ocean, you’re cheating. There are a million things about a woman, her thoughts, emotions, feelings, misgivings, hopes, fears, and dreams that a man may never know, even if he’s known her all her life. I feel like once you enter an exclusive relationship, it is that mans duty and privilege to be let into your heart, and learn your ways and the things you want to show him. I believe that becoming emotionally connected with another person, outside of your relationship, isn’t being honest or faithful.
Mind you, this isn’t to say a woman can’t make male friends, or be close to the male friends or family member she already has. But there are certain parts of a woman’s thought process that I think should be shared by her lover, and only him( or her ). I think emotional cheating is very real, and it varies from person to person ( being the person that I am, I’m emotionally hypersensitive and more susceptible to connecting with people on a deeper level than physically. ); Some people don’t have a problem remaining detached. I think for people who can keep their feelings at bay, emotional cheating may no be an issue in their relationship. They can show attention and affection ( and even sex ) without it being a ” big deal “. But in mine, it is. It would offend me if another woman was getting to know my man in the same ways I got to know him when we first came together. If I found out he was using his wit and sense of humor to charm another woman the same way he did me, I wouldn’t be happy.
I look at emotional cheating as similar, if not he same to physical cheating. In some sick way, a part of me would rather my boyfriend had a random, stupid, drunken fuck during spring break, then to find scores of letters, emails, text messages, poems and the sort written for and about a woman that isn’t me. It makes my heart cringe more at the thought of him .. longing for another woman’s attention and affection, than it does his dick being slobbed by some random ho. That’s just me though.
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calina {April 8th, 2008 at 12:44 am}
I agree…Man, it is hurtful to read a letter your man wrote to another girl where he is all “sensitive and shit”…especially when he has never sent you letters like that, OUCH…I will take a random ho slobbing the knob any day!
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onye: see, it makes me feel better knowing that i’m not the only one who knows the words to “the blowers daughter”
p: you know, julia has never done anything for me. wait, actually thats a lie. i thought she was somewhat hot in erin brockovich. wait, thats a lie too. nevermind
monk: lol, sorry to disappoint, man. thanks for stopping by though
ree: great comment. very, very insightful (and surprisingly vulgar at the end). i also liked the idea of the paddle boat analogy, even if it somewhat lost me.
with that being said, i still don’t agree with the term “cheating” being used with the examples you brought up. it just doesn’t fit
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A ‘fucked up slag’ would be a ‘ho’ who’s messed up in the head.
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Okay… well as amusing as I found this, I totally and completely disagree. At least if I take the men I’ve dealt with into account. I don’t know one man in the world that is okay with a woman having an emotional connection with another man.
I even asked one guy that I dated *cough*married*cough* what his definition of cheating was and he said, “Shit you can cheat through email.” So I know that men believe in emotional cheating. And I’ve been confronted enough times about BULLSH*T to know that men believe in the concept and CARE. LOL
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XQuizzyti, I totally agree, if you care enough to hide the texts, IM’s and emails about nothing, then you know you are cheating. You (MAN) may not want to call it emotional cheating but you know you are in the wrong.
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ana and x: I think that’s where we differ. you can “be in the wrong” without it actually being cheating. yeah, its a slippery slope, but you haven’t fallen into he pool yet
that analogy made more sense in my head
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LOL@ champ. But see, I think you can cheat without realizing it, in that regard. I don’t think you have to intend to do it, or even know what you’re doing is cheating at the time. But as soon as you start hiding things… you KNOW. And I think if you do certain things, your mate could lay them out in a way to make you understand how that was cheating to her. And you “getting it” usually involves the phrase, “Well how would you feel if I…” LOL Somehow dudes always “get it” when the shoe is on the other paw.
And I just read Donnamarie’s comment and couldn’t disagree more. If you think it’s more horrible that some dude fantasizes about someone else when he’s with you then you’re in for world of hurt. LOL That is sooo not a violation in my eyes. Shyt I know I’ve done it, so who am I to judge. And besides, I’m not the thought police - so I don’t care, I say think about whatever. But if you’re actually DOING something, out there disrespecting me, jeopardizing my life, health and taking away my choices? Then we have a problem.
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I define cheating simply as behavior (opposite sex-related) that you wouldn’t do in front of your significant other. With that said, is a relationship even worth having if you can’t even “look” (I am using “look” as a synonym for lust) at another person? Hell No! I am just going to throw this out there but…I honestly can’t imagine a world without cheating (in some form or another). The very fabric of the world would unravel without it. Just imagine the psychological trauma that so many of us would undergo. For example many find that The Club is the perfect place to establish their self-worth(lol). But, there is nothing like being (as the fellas can attest) in the clutches of some talented twirker (ie someone who has carefully honed their ability to “get low” in stilettos). This is an opportunity for us to reaffirm our swagger and desirability. Not to mention that after being in a relationship for years your significant other is not going to drop that thang to the floor… nor would you want her to. But that doesn’t mean that you have lost interest in big thangs droppin’ or that your loins no longer yearn for it! How else do you get what you want while keeping what you love without venturing into the cheating spectrum? I am not saying that a person should have extramarital sex (health concerns alone have proven that to be a bad idea) but to get a little affection may just be healthy for your relationship. NOTE: I don’t know if I buy this sh*t either but its worth thinking about.
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Yep, I know the words to that song by heart.
I’m a geek, yes. Sue me. But I *can* sing.
P: when was she in your house? I had to ask. So you’re saying that picturing her (however/whatever u said) isn’t cheating if you are in a relationship with another female? Not being confrontational, just want to get a gauge of your opinion/response…
Ree: I think the ocean analogy came from Titanic, I believe (but… who knows?)
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There are too many comments I hold an opposing argument to. I presume that The Champ made reference to such a scene like the one in “Closer” because it represents the perspective of most men, however skewed it might be in the eyes of women.
From a woman’s perspective it is likely that she would see cheating even in the form of emotional intimacy, because women mostly view relationships from an intimate and emotional standpoint. Men mostly view relationships with the opposite sex mostly on the physical first, and if anything impedes that relationship we are likely to assume that there is something physically which is impeding it.
In the awe inspiring words of Ron Burgundy, “It’s Science!”
As far as those that ascribe sharing intimate details with someone else besides your significant other as being emotional cheating, what if the guy shares the fact that he has jock itch or irritable bowel syndrome with a friend of his, whether it be a man or woman? Is he still emotionally cheating then?
It’s just my opinion, I could be wrong….
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Right on…Champ, its the act. Emotional cheating is the absolutely ignorant creation of a very insecure woman. I would argue that, thinking, imagining, and evening secretly wanting, another woman, for a man, is not only common and harmless, but actually helpful to the relationship. Men are wired to want what they see. I’ve tried, with everyone I’ve dated, to get over it, but I can’t, its not possible. But I’ve found that having a woman secure enough to know, even the type of girl I’m attracted to, and who will say, “you think she’s sexy don’t you?” withough feeling challenged, actually makes me love her more and respect her more…thereby decreasing the possibility that the “braint F^@k” because anything more than that.
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